Need help identifying whatever it is. . .
EvilMCT
Posts: 799 ✭✭✭
Hello all. This is not my usual stomping grounds, but I've been here a time or two in the past and had luck with this type of problem. A friend asked if I knew anything about the item pictured below. He is not sure where it came from, but he has relatives that have traveled to various Asian countries awhile ago. Using the scales that he had (not very good) it appears to be approximately 8 grams (a little over .5 oz) and just under 3 cm (about 1 3/16”). I had to use the “overexposed” setting for my scanner to lighten the color and boost the contrast. Without doing that, it looked like a brown disk with a hole in it; no details were visible. So, can anyone identify whether it is a coin, medal, good luck charm or just some token sold to tourists? My knowledge of world coins is limited to places that I’ve been throughout the years and I’ve never encountered one of these before. If no one knows, I would appreciate a pointer to some place to start looking. Thanks for you time ~evil
my knuckles, they bleed, on your front door
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Comments
Based on the single character reverse, I'm inclined toward Japan as its origin.
Although the markings are similar to those on some of the Nagasaki Trade Money of the mid-17th Century, there is no exact match in the Japanese Numismatic Dealers Association Catalog. The JNDA catalog, however, only shows a couple of hundred varieties, and there are thousands.
The diameter is somewhat larger than most such coins, which are typically closer to 25mm, which will be helpful in sorting through my other references when I get a chance.
I will say this though, I suspect it is a reproduction, whatever it is. Where did you get it?
Link-a-roo
I will look more into this later as i am at work at the moment....
Read in the classical order top, bottom, right, left, the obverse legend is "Hogen Daiho", which translates as "Great Treasure" (i.e. money) of the Hogen Era. The Era (1156-58 C.E.) was during the late stages of the Heian Period (794-1192 C.E.). It was the first of six Eras proclaimed during the lifetime of Emperor Nijó.
The reverse legend, which frequently functioned as a mint mark on Japanese coins of this nature, is "Ten" ("Heaven"), which may or may not equate to a particular city. At that time the capital of Japan was Heian Kyo (present-day Kyoto).
If genuine, I would estimate its value in the condition shown at somewhere north of $50, and perhaps much more.
<< <i>I lack the expertise to authenticate this type of coin, and only report what it purports to be. My inability to find an exact match in the JNDA catalog is not evidence that it isn't authentic.
Read in the classical order top, bottom, right, left, the obverse legend is "Hogen Daiho", which translates as "Great Treasure" (i.e. money) of the Hogen Era. The Era (1156-58 C.E.) was during the late stages of the Heian Period (794-1192 C.E.). It was the first of six Eras proclaimed during the lifetime of Emperor Nijó.
The reverse legend, which frequently functioned as a mint mark on Japanese coins of this nature, is "Ten" ("Heaven"), which may or may not equate to a particular city. At that time the capital of Japan was Heian Kyo (present-day Kyoto).
If genuine, I would estimate its value in the condition shown at somewhere north of $50, and perhaps much more. >>
Roy, this one reads clockwise from the top (baoda yuanbao) and it is certainly Chinese, (Southern Tang dynasty) and very likely faux.
<< <i>I googled the legend and found that it is Southern Tang, 943-957 AD:
Link-a-roo >>
Judging by the picture, I have to concede that the Chinese reading of the legend is the true one.
I find it interesting that historical research based on the Japanese reading of those same characters actually leads to a plausible (but inaccurate) attribution to almost the same time period.
I thought I might say a little something about why I think this is a reproduction. I have taken a photo from Ding Fubao to provide an image of an authentic piece: (Note the catalogue number 811 in the upper right hand corner)
The "bao" at the top of the obverse is much smaller than MCT's image and does not even touch the edge of the hole. The square element of "bao" is fairly symmetrical in MCT's example but the Ding image shows it to be elongated toward the upper right. The "da" at three o'clock on the obverse is also quite different, MCT's being quite a bit taller. The "bao" at nine o'clock has very long "feet" at the bottom of the character while the Ding example shows rather short stubby feet. The "yuan" at six o'clock in MCT's image shows a sharply upturned final stroke, the right hand leg of the character but the Ding example shows a more gradual upward slope to the final stroke.
On the reverse, the "tian" as 12 o'clock shows considerable differences. The Ding example is a little tilted to the left while MCT's is level. The Ding image shows that one of the feet of the character touches the edge of the hole but this is not the case in the MCT image.
What I find more alarming than the differences in calligraphy is the uneven thickness of the rim, especially apparent in the image of the reverse. One can see that the coin is also seriously out of round. The Ding image does not show a perfectly round coin but it is pretty close. The image I have provided is a little distorted because I could not get the page of the book to stay flattened. It is also suspect that the border between the rim and the field on the obverse is indistinct. The planes of the surfaces should be at sharp, clean angles and should not slope into one another.
I would say that color is odd but MCT has explained that he had to overexpose the coin so that may not be a valid point.
At any rate, for all these reasons, I strongly suspect that it is fake.
Sumnon, my friend has no idea where it came from. He was cleaning up one day and found it. He has had relatives visit China, but doesn’t know if that’s where he acquired it. Plus, he has mentioned to me that someone in his family has a huge coin collection that he is to inherit. I do not know if that’s the source of this either; nothing but speculation at this point.
As to the coin, it is a deep chocolate brown color, but does have some verdigris and granularity due to corrosion. It also displays a fair amount of wear as if circulated. These things are the only reason that I thought it may be authentic to begin with. But in comparing it to the reference provided, I believe you are right in your assessment. As to its authenticity, where could I go to or send it for verification? I doubt that my friend will care if it’s real or not, but you’ve got my interest. As far as the value is concerned, I doubt he will care but I’m still interested. In case you can’t tell, he isn’t a collector and I am.
Once again, thanks for the help.
Ken