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GRRRRR! 1922 Weak D cents! I THINK I AM GOING NUTS!!!!!
WaterSport
Posts: 6,911 ✭✭✭✭✭
OK, I had a grade set of 1922 weak D cents I recently sold off except for my pride and joy, a MS 63 R&B. Recently I submitted another PCGS MS 63 R&B regular strike 1922 D for Grade review with comment and Variety Designation. I felt that the coin not only was mis-graded by one point, I felt when compared to my already designated MS 63 Weak D , It too was a Weak D example. I finally get it back, and sure enough, it got bumped to a 64 R&B, but no Weak D designation. Of course I had to wait to get the coin in hand to see what the little note would say as to why it was not a Weak D. I open the package and no note, no comment on the invoice either, even though, I wrote on the invoice to tell me why the coin was not a Weak D or higher graded than a 64 R&B and paid the $92.35 for them (PCGS) to do so. OK, no problem, I will contact Customer service by email. Sure enough, quick reply back informs me they have the graders comments. Now, These are the comments, and no, I am not making this up.."Not a weak D or no D. Lot's of die erosion." Imagine that? a 1922 D cent with die erosion. Whoever heard of such a thing? So what to do next? I either have TWO Weak D coins, or neither is a Weak D IMHO. But I need your caustic comments to set me straight. Fire away and please tell me if you think these are weak D cents or not. Coin # 1 PCGS MS 63 R&B Weak D. Coin #2 MS 64 R&B regular strike. Ira Stein, if your watching, I could use your advice here.
WS
WS
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
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Comments
Ummmm.... I dunno - unless maybe they are judging based on "Liberty" and not the mintmark (area) at all???
History of the US Constitution Coin Set
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
maybe someone can fill the clueless in, like me, what exactly makes
a weak D different from the other ones.
WS
WS
So just what exactly is a 1922 Weak D Cent?
Those who collect Lincoln Cents still ask a lot of questions about the 1922 D Cent. It seems that for a coin made at one mint, for one year it sure does have a lot of collector possibilities and confusion. After 85 years it still challenges collectors for being one of the most difficult error coins to correctly identify and grade. Why so much confusion over this one cent? There have simply been too many descriptions used to describe the visibility of the mint mark yet the difference can be worth hundreds of dollars. What was once a coin of little interest, the 1922 Weak D cent continues to rise in popularity and value. This is partially due to its increasing availability in certified slabs by all the major grading services and because many collectors feel it makes a great substitute for the pricey No D example. Another reason for it growing popularity is fueled by the increased interest of type, variety and mint error collectors.
As I search through a plentiful list of 1922 cents on eBay I see many mislabeled Weak D examples. In addition I also find numerous “Partial” and “Broken D” cents listed. Partial and Broken D mint marks still have little collector interest and value. The true Weak D variety on the other hand can command a premium price. So how can you tell the difference? Let’s start by exploring the history of the 1922 cent and see if this helps explain the difference.
Even today the real news affecting you and I can be found not on the front page, but on the business page. In 1922 the US economy was rising from a brief depression. Bankers reduced lending during the 1920-21 depression forcing businesses to look at earnings, stocks and bonds to raise investment, and working capital. All of these actions combined reduced loan demand and reduced the need to mint coins. Thus if you look at 1921 mintages for most coin denominations and compare them to the years before you will see they are often some of the lowest mintages especially since the end of WWI. Yet, some of the largest mintages of Lincoln cents occurred between 1916 and 1920. Not only did 1921 see a reduced production of cents based on high mintages the previous 5 years, it also saw the introduction of a new Peace Dollar struck during midyear. The Mint was under great pressure to produce the new dollar and spent most of its resources to make Peace dollar dies for all three mints. The only other coins minted in 1922 were the St Guadens 20 dollar gold piece at Philadelphia and San Francisco and the silver and gold Grant Commemoratives minted at Philadelphia. So only the peace dollar and cent would be minted at the Denver facility. Seven million cents were produced that year compared to 84 million Peace dollars!
Unfortunately Mint records do not provide us with an expected cent production for 1922. Several numismatic historians surmise that the mint was under great pressure to produce as many cents as possible but were given way too few dies to do the job. Therefore they reused the dies beyond normal mint standards creating the well known No D cents. While it is true that Peace Dollars were the priority, it is also true that the recent depression, heavy production of cents produced since 1916, and the decision to manufacture cents at only one mint does not support the theory that a heavy production of cents was expected at the Denver mint. Furthermore, if you look at the number of dies produced for cents for all three mints from 1911- 1920 and divide them in to the total number of cents produced at all three mints, you will find the average die was producing 179,000 cents. Interestingly the Denver mint received 47 dies – enough to produce 8,413,000 cents. Their actual mintage total was 7,160,000 cents. So was there pressure to meet or exceed a goal of 8 million cents? I guess we will never know. But we do know production began in January and ended late February with the last of the cents produced February 26th - February 28th.
As the dies began to wear out in the last few weeks of February, they continued to be reworked way beyond any acceptable minting standards. So badly where the worn, broken and die clashed dies reused that the mint mark would soon disappear and newly minted cents looked like they had the wear of 50 year old circulated specimens. Simply put, the mint would never produce so many poorly struck cents as they did in 1922.
To say weak or disappearing mint marks have never occurred before 1922 would be misleading. In fact, there are numerous documented examples of barely legible mint marks produced most years. But if any cent produced at Denver or San Francisco lacked a mint mark, it would never be noticed since it would be considered a product of the Philadelphia mint. Even though the 1922 cent was only manufactured in Denver, no one paid any attention that a number of the 1922 cents bore no D mintmark until 1928 when collectors began documenting in numismatic literature that specimens showed only a trace or no D at all. Discussion among collectors would continue for the next 20 years as to the circumstances of the missing D on some coins. Eventually this “variety” (The coin is actually classified as a mint error) would appear in the 1948 Guide Book of United States Coins. By this time a consensuses had been reached and three coins were listed for 1922. A regular strike with “D”, “Broken D” and “No D”. Seven years later the “Broken D” listing was then dropped in the 1955 Guide Book of United States Coins over the ongoing confusion as to exactly what caused them to have partial or no mint marks at all. The term “broken D” became then and is still today used as a catch all phrase for cents with partial to barely visible mintmarks. This is the main reason the Weak D cent has been unable to stand alone as a readily distinguishable coin. But first the strongly contested debate over how much of a D had to be missing in order for it to be considered a no D cent had to be resolved since poorly struck circulating specimens continued to wear. After all - was it fair to have a cent become a no D error after a partial or weak D was worn off due to circulation?
Eventually a few collectors began to look at the 1922 cent in two different ways. One was the identification of die pairs and the other was the minting process itself. Both theories were viewed together in earnest by the American Numismatic Association Certification Service (ANACS) in 1982. With the advent of third party grading services, there had to be clear attribution and grading standards set. Sorting through the confusion, Ed Fleischmann did set the currently used standards for the 1922 "No D" cents while at ANACS between 1976 and 1978, drawing upon previous work done by Ed at Coin World's Collectors Clearinghouse. ANACS did an excellent job establishing the three die varieties that could create a No D cent and explaining how the coins came to lack a mintmark in a series of production problems. Their findings became the identification and grading standards still used by the major grading companies to this day.
What the experts at ANACS did was determine that of the three die combinations that could produce No D cents, die pair No. 1, and 3 appeared to lack mintmarks intermittently during production due to filled dies. Die 1 and 3 are also identified as having very worn reverse dies. Therefore die number 2 is considered the one and only true No D cent as the D was removed by mint workers while reworking the die from a previous die clash and was mated with a new reverse die to produce a stunning contrast of a very weak obverse with a strong reverse.
All 3 die examples with No D are valuable in mint state but only die pair 2 is recognized as the most valuable in circulated condition as no remnant of a D has ever been found on any specimen in any condition. It also remains the scarcest of the three die combinations indicating fewer examples exist. But identification of any circulated 1922 D cent requires us to look at die characteristics and not just the lack of a D to figure out if your cent is a valuable error or not..
So how do you tell a true Weak D example? With good photos, die diagnostics and practice! Once you can identify the three major die varieties, you need only focus on dies 1 and 3 as they are the only dies capable of producing a Weak D example. Again this is a very difficult designation as any coin may first appear to be a No D example but under magnification, and in many cases with the coin tilted, a slight bump of a mintmark can be detected. A number of cents are submitted for grading as No D specimens only to disappoint their owners as being designated as Weak D examples – thus the recent surge of third party population reports. Likewise many Weak D cents are submitted only to be returned to their owners as regular struck 1922 D cents.
To start with, if your cent has a strong reverse, it’s not a Weak D. Only specimens from Dies 1 & 3 with the weak reverse strikes can produce Weak D cents. If you can see the D with out magnification on a circulated specimen, it is probably not a true Weak D. Most Weak D cents will appear as No D cents at first glance. Uncirculated specimens may have 1/3 – 2/3 visible remnant of the D showing while specimens graded AU or lower are barely visible.
Buying a certified Weak D example does not always mean you are getting a true Weak D cent as some grading companies still use the older description standard of Weak or Broken D to describe a soft or partially struck D. As an example, PCI has both Weak D and Very Weak D designations on its holders. So it’s the Very Weak D designation you want. . Early SEGS holders sometimes list “Broken D” again; look for their designated Weak D example. PCGS will designate only true Weak D examples on their holders. While ANACS and NGC will go a little further and list the Weak D and whether it is a Die 1 or 3.
Finally, in 1998, the Guide Book of United States Coins re listed the 1922 D cent under three headings. They are now again – 1922 with D, 1922 No D and 1922 Weak D. Only this time the definition does not include partial, broken or softly struck D specimens. Only those specimens that meet true Weak D characteristics with die 1 or 3 diagnostics can be considered a true Weak D specimen.
K S
Edit: I would love a copy of the PCGS diagnostics for the coin.
WS
13 words for the $20 comment fee? And you had to ASK for it after not receiving it? How many "stars" you going to leave in their feedback?
Seems like NO MATTER WHAT PCGS should NOT have removed the coin from a Weak D holder UNLESS they we're darn sure going to put it back into another one (that said Weak D).
That's DEFINITELY a MAJOR screwup and if nothing else should trigger some part of their authenticity guarantee as you clearly got a reduction in value due to their "correction".
as anyone that submits know that it is all a money game to get the
coin in the slab your hoping for. That second coin to me is definitely
a weak d. Whoever submitted the first one definitely got a gift out
of the graders. I'm sorry to say I wouldn't have submitted it under
a Weak D designation only a full 22D. I can honestly say that I
think that a Weak D can also have a Type II reverse as my MS-64
Red example had a full strike on the reverse.
My current AU-50 example has a good strong strike but I don't
think of it as a die 2 reverse.
Your article was very informative thanks for sharing it with the
board members. The 22 Weak D is IMHO probably one of the
rarest coins in the Lincoln Cent series. I have one that was
left out of your article that is probably the rarest of all of the
1922 Weak D series. Although it has been cleaned it is a very
nice example of the 1922 Weak D Die4 in an Anacs holder.
If the coin that was returned to you in the 64RB holder was
my coin I think that I'd have to at least try one more time
to see if it would get the grade that I think it deserves as
it looks like it has hardly any traces of the D as most Weak D
coins look IMHO. Here's hoping if you do GOOD Luck.
Mike.
Someday REAL American HERO's will be on our COINS.
rabbitracks toned showcase set
myurl
<< <i>1st coin is blatantly obvious it's not a "weak d".
K S >>
How can you say that w/o seeing the reverse die type? In MS, up to 2/3 rds of the D may be visible?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
I think that I am going to take it back to him now that I have learned the true definition of weak.
after sending it back a second time only to get a NON Weak D
the second time around. I'd probably hold off for a while
before I'd resubmit it again for the designation as lately
they have been a little tough on any Lincoln cents. Anyway
sure is a very nice coin if you picked it up for 63 money, from
a SEGS 66 holder. Did you cross it or crack it out?
Mike.
Someday REAL American HERO's will be on our COINS.
rabbitracks toned showcase set
myurl
WS