Natural toning or artifical????
1794half1839
Posts: 505 ✭
Posted this in the US forum, but since it is a world coin, hoping to get some help from you "dark siders."
http://cgi.ebay.com/1921-MO-PCGS-AU53-Mexico-Colorful-Scarce-Date-Dos-Peso_W0QQitemZ230235310838QQihZ013QQcategoryZ541QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/1921-MO-PCGS-AU53-Mexico-Colorful-Scarce-Date-Dos-Peso_W0QQitemZ230235310838QQihZ013QQcategoryZ541QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Greg Cohen
Senior Numismatist
Legend Rare Coin Auctions
Senior Numismatist
Legend Rare Coin Auctions
0
Comments
Todd
Todd
It must be Natural toning, PCGS slabed it.
I think the colors may not be so bright in person, just my opinion. It probably is natural toning in that it was left on a reactive surface or in a bag of some type.
DPOTD-3
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CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
Todd
8 Reales Madness Collection
Incidentally, I recall a post here about a year ago wherein someone lamented that nicely toned 2P were very difficult to locate.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
Senior Numismatist
Legend Rare Coin Auctions
Please be serious on the NT - this has been beat to death on the lite side and I think everything should now be called NT - PSYCH! That seller has had so many similarly toned coins from the US to Zanzibar (you get the drift) that it is ridiculous.
From the lite side discussions, I doubt that anybody will be convinced, so I say let the All-AT team go for the gusto and spend all their money on these lovelies.
Well, just Love coins, period.
8 Reales Madness Collection
I've seen several similar to that.
My OmniCoin Collection
My BankNoteBank Collection
Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
<< <i>That seller has had so many similarly toned coins from the US to Zanzibar (you get the drift) that it is ridiculous. >>
Ridiculous is you making an uninformed comment like this. If this coin is artificially toned then point out the reasons why, not attack the seller.
The coin is clearly natural as are most all of the coins Dick sells. He has sold some questionable coins as all dealers have, but he sells them after the experts at the T.P.G. examine them.
I did not criticize the seller as they are only providing material to buyers who demand such. This coin's toning has been turned out time and time again by this seller with many different iterations. I DID NOT CRITICIZE THE SELLER!
These colors are not natural, but buy away if you choose - heck, if you are paying enough it may be that I start selling into the market.
Well, just Love coins, period.
The coin in question seems to have toning that "creeps" and blends naturally over raised surfaces and fields.
Most AT I've seen has severe demarcation lines and looks much more fake.
This one isn't bad and as LordM stated, it's in a PCGS holder.
is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
<< <i>Ridiculous actually is your comment as I have noticed before ignorance reigns supreme; in point of fact I do have the expertise to make such comments and a technical background which will not be belabored at this juncture. These are cooked on sulfides/sulfa oxidants and you can believe or not, that is the case.
I did not criticize the seller as they are only providing material to buyers who demand such. This coin's toning has been turned out time and time again by this seller with many different iterations. I DID NOT CRITICIZE THE SELLER!
These colors are not natural, but buy away if you choose - heck, if you are paying enough it may be that I start selling into the market. >>
You did not criticize the seller but you are calling him a coin doctor and stating that he is artificial toning coins. You are an ignorant fool. If you keep your mouth closed then less people will know this embarrassing fact about you.
The fact that it is slabbed means a lot less since it has been proven that coins can be AT'd once they are in holders.
8 Reales Madness Collection
<< <i>Flying Eagle, there's no reason for personal insults. Please try to hold a civilized conversation on this forum, even if the topic is as controversial as doctoring. 7Jaguars posted his observations about the seller selling toned coins that displayed similar colors, which is true, but it can be also easily attributed to the fact that the seller specialized in selling toned coins (thus his eBay name). >>
7jaguars stated that I was ignorant. I am pointing out that it is he who is the ignorant one. He has attacked an Ebay seller and forum member and made unsubstantiated and false claims about what this person does. His proof of this is that he knows but will not belabor us with the facts.
He is not pointing out his observations, but rather outright calling the seller a coin doctor. Observe: This coin's toning has been turned out time and time again by this seller with many different iterations. 7jaguars needs to provide proof of his allegations or he needs to apologize to the seller and retract all his libelous allegations. I suspect he is not righteous enough to do either.
Since my living depends on getting consignments, I can't pick and choose what I sell. I do believe that the 1921 Dos Peso is absolutely naturally toned but then again its just my opinion.
Thank you for listening.
Regards,
MrD
<< <i>For the record I take my reputation seriously. 98% of the coins I sell are consignments from people all over the United States and in some cases other parts of the world. I am known for my ability to take photographs of colorful toned coins and get high prices for them. That is why people send them to me. I couldn't tone a coin if my life depended on it.
Since my living depends on getting consignments, I can't pick and choose what I sell. I do believe that the 1921 Dos Peso is absolutely naturally toned but then again its just my opinion.
Thank you for listening.
Regards,
MrD >>
Hrmm... that's like saying, "I don't make the counterfeits, I just sell them for others". I understand you consign stuff but don't you think the scrupulous thing to do would be to put in the auction that the coin in hand may or may not be AT? I know I would but then again that's me. A consignment person should ALWAYS note that they are consigning the item for someone else. Just a CYA sorta thing. I think some of your coins are beautiful, but I wouldn't buy them because toning really isn't my thing, but again...that's just me. No one here was attacking the seller's character, we were just trying to find a way to help the buyer decide if the coin was AT or NT..... We as collectors have no right to attack the counterfeiters and such if we don't take every precaution to make sure our auctions are honest and well represented. I think not disclosing that the coin is consignment and you don't know if it is AT or NT, then to me that is somewhat deceptive....
Todd
We all need to go out and enjoy our Friday evening.
8 Reales Madness Collection
<< <i>We all need to go out and enjoy our Friday evening. >>
No problem- I've got ribs on the grill and a beer in my hand (well... actually, on the desk as I'm typing) right now.
The natural toning I know and see often on many British coins is one which has taken decades or even centuries to build, rarely comes in rainbow colours. It is usually just the darkening or a dark patina developing on a coin. I accept that if coins are kept in envelopes or say a window sill there is a chance of them developing some colour. Now some critics might even argue that deliberately keeping a coin in a place where you know it's got a good chance of toning colourfully as aiding in it toning. Therefore they argue the coin in a way has become artificially toned.
So again the question I ask is what exactly do you consider to be “natural toning”? If the answer is to allow the coin to develop its own natural patina over a long period of time without any intervention or help, then there are many coins for sale world wide which do not fit the bill.
It will be interesting to see where others draw the line between NT and AT toned coins. Many collectors in the UK don't really go for colourful coins but it may catch on. Personally I like some but not all of them, just like coins with dark patina, again I like some but not all of them.
Regards,
Hus
Todd
I have only stated what is obvious and has been done before in terms of coin surfaces.
Furthermore, do NOT put words in my mouth as I have no knowledge where these coins originate and the primary party involved has spoken in any case.
Well, just Love coins, period.
ahhh......yes......the ole' liteside(ish) NT versus AT debate. This is something that we as darksiders are not immune to, but since a tremendous percentage of our darkside coins werent' kept in sulfur laden bags, stored away in sometimes damp vaults for decades, they usually don't impart wild colors ala Morgan dollars. However, as Hus pointed out, many coins still picked up nice toning (albeit generally darker, and less "colorful") in old-world coin cabinets, et cetera.
Americans have generally gone toner wild these last few years, paying huge (and i mean HUGE) multiples of some colorfully toned "monsters"; most of these are classic US coins, especially Morgan dollars. If you're unaware of these, it won't take more than a few minutes on the liteside forum to track some down. Darksiders usually don't fall into this camp for the most part; while nice toning may bring a premium, you generally won't find a coin going for several times it's book value just because of the toning.
However, the whole "premium for the toner monsters" debate has sparked a lot of discussion, and gnashing of teeth in regards to the two major TPGs being able to point them out and keep them out of their holders.
Some may remember this brewhaha that had everyone all worked up over there. It sparked nearly 400 posts in 4 days, and most agreed it was slabbed as NT when it clearly wasn't (heck, PCI got it right and PCGS missed the mark while giving it a point bump!) This was/is a $25 coin, that was for sale on ebay for $2500 by a forum member. In the midst of the forum uprising, the seller pulled the auction; who knows where it resides now, but i'm sure some sucker paid big money for it just because PCGS slabbed someone's kitchen chemistry experiment.
Heck, there was even a forum member on the liteside forum that used to brag about "making" toners, getting them slabbed in PCGS and NGC plastic, and then showing them off and bragging at major US coin shows. I know two folks that saw these things, and talked to him in person. He stated he wasn't interested in selling as he felt it would be dishonest, he just wanted to stroke his own ego enough to see if he could pull it off. But you can be sure that there are many more like him out there that are getting these into top tier holders, and are certainly selling them to the unaware.
......and of course you have this stuff. Purchased at auction in an NCS details "proof - cleaned" slab", cracked out and toned by a doctor, then presto: instant PCGS PF63!
click here
and for those that thinks "who cares, it is in a top tier holder!", i'll bet the owner would like to know that he paid $50k for something that was damaged goods and worth much (and still is!) less just a few months prior.
my whole point is that I believe we as darksiders don't have as much to worry about from people artifically toning coins. There isn't a huge premium for color, and the really good coin doctors seem to be too busy making tons of cash doing it to US coins to worry about foreign coins.
<< <i>Uhhhh, because even "P" has made some whopping mistakes in the past! >>
They have indeed. The coin being discussed is not one of those mistakes, though. It's NT. I don't think it's all that attractive, but it does look natural.
Russ, NCNE
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