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Got this in the mail today...1910 MPL ? opinions please. big pics...UPDATE>>>


Update........4/2/08........Just got a call from across the street....ITS A BOY..and his name is "MATTE".....................PR64 BN..................image



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    cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Beautiful! THanks also for the pic of the edge...you don't see that very often because most of them are in plastic...
    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
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    fcfc Posts: 12,789 ✭✭✭
    let me be the first to say awesome pics!

    i did not see the obvious die polish lines i normally see on these
    but the rims look very flat.

    overall a nice looking coin even if the color is a bit odd to me,
    personally.

    i would not know it was a matte proof unless someone told me
    based on the pics due to the normal diagnostic i ussually look for.

    this should be a good post! once again great pic taking skills.
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    LeeGLeeG Posts: 12,162
    Link for you:


    1910 MPL Diagnostics
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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,761 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,626 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Your Coin is a genuine 1910 Matte Proof Lincoln.

    congrats, nice buy!

    Decision based on diagnostic in TRUST obverse 1 late die state has mark through U going to top of S
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,598 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Definitely one I would submit.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    SUMORADASUMORADA Posts: 4,797
    TomB
    I know very little about MPL's, when I opened the package this morning my first thought was no MPL, I looked at the diagnostics thread several times over the weekend in anticipation of the coin arriving today, I can see what I thought was the Quote:3. On the reverse there is a die scratch extending downward and to the left from the first leg of M in UNUM

    ?????
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    curlycurly Posts: 2,880


    It looks like one to me brother, I'd submit it. Let me be the first to say PF64RB.
    Every man is a self made man.
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    SUMORADASUMORADA Posts: 4,797
    Another pic.....................

    image
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    ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,626 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image Thats exactly what you got there, brother! congrats again! PR64RB
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    fcfc Posts: 12,789 ✭✭✭
    after reading other peoples posts, it does now seem like a winner!
    congrats.
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,598 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It does not appear to have the die polish shown in the linked diagnostic thread.
    However, it is indeed a darm fine strike!
    When I was at ANACS we attributed for our records all 1928 Peace dollars as to die pair one, two or three. Then one day, after seeing several hundred coins over many years, we saw a genuine coin from die pair 4.
    In other words, new die information is always possible. Submit the coin.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    I agree with Curly, PR64 but I think it looks a little more BN than RB. Keep us posted.
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    ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,626 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think RB. They seem to actually take the color quite literally, in that if there are patches of the original orangeish red mint mint color, that is RD, but if the color tones down, even though it is RED to us it becomes BN to the grader since the original orangeish color is gone. I see lots of orange on this coin, so I feel RB here.

    No arguments about it, thats a Matte. Not all coins had all die markers. If it has ONE, that is a specific unique to mattes diagnostic, it dosent need others.

    Yup Id send that in for grading..
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    SUMORADASUMORADA Posts: 4,797
    I have a small window for return so I think I will do a 1 day or walk thru across the street to be sure......


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    duck620duck620 Posts: 949 ✭✭✭
    BEAUTIFUL COIN.WISH IT WAS MINE.image
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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,761 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Your first set of images did not show "WE" and "TRUST" well enough to get a decent look. Additionally, the quote that you are relying on regarding the "M" in "UNUM" should have mentioned that this die scratch is also on business strike coinage. The center spike coming out from the bottom of the "M" looks as though it might be present, which is diagnostic of the proof reverse, but I just can't tell if it's real or a lighting artifact. You have essentially nothing to lose by submitting it, but given the first set of images I could not embrace it as a proof without hesitation.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    Background --
    When a matte proof Lincoln or Buffalo die was sufficiently deteriorated to be withdrawn from service in the medal press, it was not resurfaced. Rather, they were put into use on production presses. (We have no idea what criteria were used to withdraw a proof die for these coins, other than obvious damage, or metal flow, or how many strikes a die could make before it was replaced. Coining room foremen must have known, and the ladies who separated good proofs from bad must have been shown what to look for, but apparently nothing survives in writing.)

    It can be difficult to fit some coins into the proof or circulation strike categories.
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    ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,626 ✭✭✭✭✭
    An interesting story, but considering that the average die could go over a quarter million impressions.....it would stand to reason that in this scenario, there are tens of thousands, or perhaps millions, of Lincolns that were coined using matte proof dies.

    This, while an interesting theory, is not supported by fact. This would mean that for any of the matte proofs, there would be many more coins with these diagnostics reserved for matte proofs that exist as circulation strikes. Since the very distinctive granular surface on mattes is not something you run across in MS lincolns, it remains a hallmark of the matte proof.

    I have read in print that any matte proof from the medal room that the coiner found not up to his specs, would be tossed into the 'for circulation' bin. Thrifty use of these rejects though, I do not feel, would dramatically increase the 'loose mattes' which ended up in the circulation stream.


    (just admit it, the OP has got himself a nice Mattie)

    image

    The ONLY thing Im concerned with on this coin is that usually the reverse is much more toned than the obverse, though it is possible and probably likely that this coin was removed from its mint tissue early on in its collected life, and spared the normal toning found on mattes. (or it has been dipped and retoned over the years, a possiblilty since it is raw at this late date....)
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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,642 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have seen two business strike Lincolns designated as proof in an NGC and PCGS holder.
    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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    ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,626 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Since this coin is unholdered, another key diagnosic for ALL matte proof lincolns is that the ouside edge is formed against a polished collar. On a business strike, in MS, the edge will show thousands of microscopic up and down lines, as if a punch had went through. the matte proof will have a mirror, or smooth rim.

    Take a good look at your edge in good light with a loupe
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    SteveSteve Posts: 3,313 ✭✭✭
    A very interesting thread which goes to show me once again that what PCGS or NGC say about a so called Matte proof Lincoln cent is what REALLY counts as far as collectors are concerned. If you cherrypick a RAW Lincoln that "looks" like an MPL it doesn't get accepted by the hobby UNTIL PCGS or NGC agree it is an MPL. And so, I hope the OP got a real good deal on this coin, but he won't know for sure until it is slabbed. JMHO. Steveimage
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    ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,626 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How RIGHT you are

    slab makes all da difference

    but I think hes doing good on this coin, look at those :::Rims:::
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    LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    It is close enough to be worth a shot. In QDB's book on Lincoln cents, he says that there a very few dealers out there who can identify MPLs raw. I would give that coin a sticker, no matter if it MPLs or not.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
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    astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice images and a nicely struck cent. I am not sure about the MPL status, but I was curious about two issues that came to mind when viewing the images.

    1. Are there a couple of corrosion spots above the date?
    2. Are there flat spots (cabinet friction?) on Lincoln's cheekbone and beard?

    Lane
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,642 ✭✭✭✭✭
    FWIW---I do believe it is a MPL.
    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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    SUMORADASUMORADA Posts: 4,797
    I made an appointment for tomorrow morning across the street, so I should know within a day, here are 2 pics using a Ott Lite, they are close, they show the green on the bust, the others are with a regular bulb.........

    imageimage

    1. Are there a couple of corrosion spots above the date?
    2. Are there flat spots (cabinet friction?) on Lincoln's cheekbone and beard?


    imageimage
    imageimage
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    SUMORADASUMORADA Posts: 4,797
    btt.............results on page 1
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    curlycurly Posts: 2,880


    Congratulations brother. image
    Every man is a self made man.
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    Congrats
    There is nothing like an uncirculated set of washington quarters!!!
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    ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,626 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Told 'ya!

    Happy also it got through the "questionable color" gauntlet!

    enjoy! And it was nice seeing your RIMS image
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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,642 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Super!!!
    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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    Man, that was fun to watch unfold. The die polish near the U and S was the giveaway.
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    ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,626 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great Photographs were a big help!!

    Diagnostics are wonderful things if you can see them, and understand if they should or should not be present.

    Most of us are rather unfamilar with the look of a raw Matte proof, perhaps if pcgs changes to an edge view slab like the Prez dollars the preception of the overall look of the coin will change for us, and the rims will become a focal point of identification, especailly on these raw coins, and ebay.
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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,761 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good job!!!
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    Congrats, nice score.image
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    commoncents05commoncents05 Posts: 10,078 ✭✭✭
    Congrats!

    -Paul
    Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com
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    SUMORADASUMORADA Posts: 4,797
    I appreciate the help, thank you!
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    ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,626 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image


    Matte proofs make a new man out of you, the trouble is the first thing that that new man wants is another matte proof

    (slightly paraphrased from an '80s proverb )
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    So it seems like the planchets are thicker on Matte proof lincolns as compared to business strikes?
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    fastrudyfastrudy Posts: 2,096
    Nice score, beautiful coin!
    Successful transactions with: DCarr, Meltdown, Notwilight, Loki, MMR, Musky1011, cohodk, claychaser, cheezhed, guitarwes, Hayden, USMoneyLover

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,598 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>So it seems like the planchets are thicker on Matte proof lincolns as compared to business strikes? >>



    No, just struck up better on the rims, making the finished coin look thicker when viewed edge on.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    MarkJudeMarkJude Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    Great Story and thanks for sharing -

    Mark
    I'm here to learn a little something...
    Mark's Mattes
    Mark's Cameo SMS Set
    Mark's Non-Cameo SMS Set

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