PCGS statement on counterfeit holders
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COUNTERFEIT PCGS HOLDERS
- March 27, 2008
In recent days, counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS slabs have begun to appear on eBay, the online auction site. All of the counterfeit coins/holders seen so far are coming out of China. Alert members of the PCGS Message Boards were the first to notify PCGS of the counterfeit coins/holders.
The coins themselves range from poor-quality counterfeits to well-made fakes. The counterfeit PCGS holders are well-executed, but with minor differences from a genuine holder. PCGS anticipates that authentic coins will eventually be placed into counterfeit PCGS holders in the future, perhaps with elevated grades and/or inappropriate designators (Full Bell Lines, Prooflike, etc.), although none have been seen to date.
The on-line PCGS Certificate Verification is a method for confirming that a particular certificate number matches the information in the PCGS database, but the counterfeiters are aware of this detection method and are now using valid certificate numbers (see below).
PCGS has contacted U.S. governmental agencies, including the FBI, U.S. Customs, the Secret Service, and US Postal authorities, to enlist their assistance in pursuing enforcement or legal remedies against these counterfeiters. Also, PCGS is a member of eBay's CCW Group, which monitors eBay for fraudulent listings and asks eBay to discontinue auctions of suspicious coins and/or suspend violators.
PCGS has called for eBay to stop accepting listings of any rare coins from Chinese sellers. Ebay recently pulled several auctions of counterfeit coins/holders at the urging of PCGS.
PCGS urges consumers not to purchase rare coins from Chinese sellers on eBay. While legitimate, authentic coins exist in China, the plethora of fakes and fraudulent listings on eBay increase the likelihood that coins purchased from Chinese sellers will be counterfeit.
The PCGS Guarantees of Grade and Authenticity do not apply to counterfeit holders, but PCGS has a strong interest in assisting consumers in actions against any fraudulent sellers.
Sufficient differences exist between genuine and counterfeit holders such that PCGS experts can easily identify fake holders. Consumers are cautioned that coins that appear to be underpriced may be counterfeit. PCGS urges all consumers to deal only with reputable sellers who are willing to stand behind the coins they sell.
PCGS recommends consumers consider the following any time they make a coin purchase:
1. Verify the certificate number using the PCGS Cert Verification program at http://www.pcgs.com/cert/
See limitations above
2. Avoid purchasing rare coins from eBay sellers in China.
3. Investigate the legitimacy of the seller (examine feedback; avoid low feedback sellers; find out how long the seller has been in business; do they have a good reputation?; do you have legal recourse in case of a problem?).
4. Make sure you have a money-back guarantee that is enforceable (for example, credit card companies will often assist in cases of fraud).
5. Realize that "bargains" in numismatics are usually too good to be true.
6. If you have a question about a particular coin, be sure to have it checked out by an Authorized PCGS Dealer or by PCGS before the expiration of any guarantees.
7. Request an immediate refund if the coin you purchased turns out to be a counterfeit.
The following list of coins and certificate numbers have been seen in fake PCGS holders:
China (1916) Silver Dollar, Y-332, Cert #10712316 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, K-677, Cert #11354470 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, K-678, Cert #11285683 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, Y-336.1, Cert #13835186 (valid)
China Republic (1912) 20 Cents, Cert #21981173 (invalid)
China (1916) Gold Dollar, Pn-44, Cert # 11072163 (invalid)
China (1923) Gold Dollar, Tsao Kun, K-677, Cert #11354470 (invalid spec, valid cert…used above)
US 1858-O Half Dollar, Cert #03884338 (valid)
US 1800 Silver Dollar, Cert #03859118 (valid)
US 1795 Silver Dollar, Off-Center Bust, Cert #22030856 (valid)
Mexico 1761-MoMM 8 Reales, Cert #05763936 (valid)
"Valid" means that the correct information shows up under Cert Verification
To alert PCGS to any offerings of counterfeit PCGS holders, please notify Ron Guth at guthr@collectors.com. For more information, contact PCGS Customer Service at 800-447-8848.
COUNTERFEIT PCGS HOLDERS
- March 27, 2008
In recent days, counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS slabs have begun to appear on eBay, the online auction site. All of the counterfeit coins/holders seen so far are coming out of China. Alert members of the PCGS Message Boards were the first to notify PCGS of the counterfeit coins/holders.
The coins themselves range from poor-quality counterfeits to well-made fakes. The counterfeit PCGS holders are well-executed, but with minor differences from a genuine holder. PCGS anticipates that authentic coins will eventually be placed into counterfeit PCGS holders in the future, perhaps with elevated grades and/or inappropriate designators (Full Bell Lines, Prooflike, etc.), although none have been seen to date.
The on-line PCGS Certificate Verification is a method for confirming that a particular certificate number matches the information in the PCGS database, but the counterfeiters are aware of this detection method and are now using valid certificate numbers (see below).
PCGS has contacted U.S. governmental agencies, including the FBI, U.S. Customs, the Secret Service, and US Postal authorities, to enlist their assistance in pursuing enforcement or legal remedies against these counterfeiters. Also, PCGS is a member of eBay's CCW Group, which monitors eBay for fraudulent listings and asks eBay to discontinue auctions of suspicious coins and/or suspend violators.
PCGS has called for eBay to stop accepting listings of any rare coins from Chinese sellers. Ebay recently pulled several auctions of counterfeit coins/holders at the urging of PCGS.
PCGS urges consumers not to purchase rare coins from Chinese sellers on eBay. While legitimate, authentic coins exist in China, the plethora of fakes and fraudulent listings on eBay increase the likelihood that coins purchased from Chinese sellers will be counterfeit.
The PCGS Guarantees of Grade and Authenticity do not apply to counterfeit holders, but PCGS has a strong interest in assisting consumers in actions against any fraudulent sellers.
Sufficient differences exist between genuine and counterfeit holders such that PCGS experts can easily identify fake holders. Consumers are cautioned that coins that appear to be underpriced may be counterfeit. PCGS urges all consumers to deal only with reputable sellers who are willing to stand behind the coins they sell.
PCGS recommends consumers consider the following any time they make a coin purchase:
1. Verify the certificate number using the PCGS Cert Verification program at http://www.pcgs.com/cert/
See limitations above
2. Avoid purchasing rare coins from eBay sellers in China.
3. Investigate the legitimacy of the seller (examine feedback; avoid low feedback sellers; find out how long the seller has been in business; do they have a good reputation?; do you have legal recourse in case of a problem?).
4. Make sure you have a money-back guarantee that is enforceable (for example, credit card companies will often assist in cases of fraud).
5. Realize that "bargains" in numismatics are usually too good to be true.
6. If you have a question about a particular coin, be sure to have it checked out by an Authorized PCGS Dealer or by PCGS before the expiration of any guarantees.
7. Request an immediate refund if the coin you purchased turns out to be a counterfeit.
The following list of coins and certificate numbers have been seen in fake PCGS holders:
China (1916) Silver Dollar, Y-332, Cert #10712316 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, K-677, Cert #11354470 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, K-678, Cert #11285683 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, Y-336.1, Cert #13835186 (valid)
China Republic (1912) 20 Cents, Cert #21981173 (invalid)
China (1916) Gold Dollar, Pn-44, Cert # 11072163 (invalid)
China (1923) Gold Dollar, Tsao Kun, K-677, Cert #11354470 (invalid spec, valid cert…used above)
US 1858-O Half Dollar, Cert #03884338 (valid)
US 1800 Silver Dollar, Cert #03859118 (valid)
US 1795 Silver Dollar, Off-Center Bust, Cert #22030856 (valid)
Mexico 1761-MoMM 8 Reales, Cert #05763936 (valid)
"Valid" means that the correct information shows up under Cert Verification
To alert PCGS to any offerings of counterfeit PCGS holders, please notify Ron Guth at guthr@collectors.com. For more information, contact PCGS Customer Service at 800-447-8848.
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Comments
hmmmm.......so when David Hall stated to us here a couple years back, that this forum serves no purpose to PCGS and wanted to shut down the boards, did he ever consider that many of us are his/their eyes and ears in the marketplace? These boards should be commended for the work they do in bringing these scammers to light, and were it not for the memebers here, how long would it have taken PCGS to realize they had a problem? just curious
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
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<< <i>I think PCGS will have the clout to get Ebay off their A**es and cancel all Ebay coin listings from China. >>
seriously? I doubt ebay is willing to cancel all coin auctions from China. There are some very reputable Chinese and Hong Kong Powersellers that deal exclusively with coins. I'm sure they are not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
<< <i>PCGS has called for eBay to stop accepting listings of any rare coins from Chinese sellers. >>
LOVE IT!
<< <i>I'm sure they are not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. >>
They didn't hesitate to do that with the upcoming changes in feedback policy.
Russ, NCNE
Love to hear peoples tips for identifying the counterfeit holders (besides checking the numbers, as I do this but it doesn't seem to be foolproof here either)
<< <i>PCGS has called for eBay to stop accepting listings of any rare coins from Chinese sellers. >>
Good luck getting eBay to kill this cash cow, though. For all the talk about "protecting buyers" where their recent policy changes are concerned, as far as coins go, this one change could protect buyers more than all the restricted seller feedback in the world could accomplish.
Steve
<< <i>I think PCGS will have the clout to get Ebay off their A**es and cancel all Ebay coin listings from China. >>
That would be excellent. I realize that a FEW honest Chinese dealers will be harmed by this, but let them take it up with their government that they have a problem.
TD
peacockcoins
<< <i>I suspect eBay will do whatever it is they think will make them the most money (not that there's anything wrong with that). >>
Actually, there *is* something wrong with that if the result of this policy is a lot of buyers getting screwed with bogus coins. There's nothing wrong with a business seeking to maximize profit...within the constraints of not allowing your product to be used directly to screw people over.
<< <i>Actually, there *is* something wrong with that if the result of this policy is a lot of buyers getting screwed with bogus coins. >>
The "not that there's anything wrong with that" comment should be read with the understanding that "whatever it is" they decide is not something which promotes or enables an illegal activity.
Sorry for any confusion.
<< <i>This is all assuming these Chinese counterfeit coins/PCGS slabs are not making their way here to the States and then being marketed/auctioned/sold via a second or third party. >>
You can rest assured that the counterfeiters that were wily and affluent enough to invest in the capital equipment needed to pull this off, aren't going to roll over and go away. IF they are kicked off of ebay, they will set up a distribution network with other Chinese sellers, then to overseas sellers, and finally to US sellers.
I believe that many of these sellers will sprinkle these counterfeit coins/PCGS slabs in with their legit coins/PCGS slabs to try to hide their actions. This is the real threat we have on the horizon, as "Powersellers" may start using this tactic to increase their profits. We have to remember, the Chinese are very well adept at distribution of counterfeit good, they have been doing it for hundreds of years. Now, with the advent of the Internet, dishonest sellers, and a limp wristed ebay that hasn't seemed to care about eliminating the plethora of counterfeit goods on their website, means that collectors will have to become more vigilent.
The thing that PCGS needs to say next to assure the market that it is one the case, is about designing a new slab with anti-counterfeiting measures like NGC started a few months back.
<< <i>
<< <i>I suspect eBay will do whatever it is they think will make them the most money (not that there's anything wrong with that). >>
Actually, there *is* something wrong with that if the result of this policy is a lot of buyers getting screwed with bogus coins. There's nothing wrong with a business seeking to maximize profit...within the constraints of not allowing your product to be used directly to screw people over. >>
Ebay China has no listing fees...no final value fees....no Paypal fees. Since there is a competing auction site in China, ebay is
trying to gain market share by subsidizing China on the backs of US/Europe/Australia sellers.
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<< <i>Simple solution: Don't buy coins off ebay except from well established legitimate dealers who will stand behind their product. >>
Unless those Dealer(s) are also tricked with a counterfeit PCGS slab.
In other words, not all of the buying and selling of these fake slabbed coins are knowingly doing so.
Edited to add: I believe the future 'second generation' of replica PCGS slabs will potentially fool just about all.
peacockcoins
<< <i>
<< <i>Simple solution: Don't buy coins off ebay except from well established legitimate dealers who will stand behind their product. >>
Unless those Dealer(s) are also tricked with a counterfeit PCGS slab.
In other words, not all of the buying and selling of these fake slabbed coins are knowingly doing so.
Edited to add: I believe the future 'second generation' of replica PCGS slabs will potentially fool just about all. >>
My point being that a well established and legitimate dealer will be much less likely to be tricked and if they are will refund your money completely.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think PCGS will have the clout to get Ebay off their A**es and cancel all Ebay coin listings from China. >>
That would be excellent. I realize that a FEW honest Chinese dealers will be harmed by this, but let them take it up with their government that they have a problem.
TD >>
I agree. Let's let the legit Chinese sellers get stung because of these fakes. When they complain to their own government something may finally get done.
I'm also guessing that some of these fakes are already entering the marketplace here in the US through channels other than eBay (such as flea market sellers.) One of the board members has already stated that the Chinese maker of these counterfeits is looking for outlets in the US. I wonder how many he has found? Given the level of ethics in the coin field I have to believe that some US outlets already exist.
<< <i>I think PCGS will have the clout to get Ebay off their A**es and cancel all Ebay coin listings from China. >>
I'm not so sure they do. For one thing look at the percentages of PCGS offerings versus total US Coins, today there are 6,643 listings that PCGS appears in title out of 136,284 listings, just under 5 percent.
Secondly out of this roughly 5 percent of listings with PCGS in the title how many of these listings does PCGS itself have the power to pull? I'd say they have control of 0% of listings.
Not much leverage on PCGS's part from that perspective. The leverage would only result from possible legal actions against Ebay if they knowningly continue auctions which clearly sell fake PCGS slabs. And from what I understand the laws are in Ebays favor as they seem to have zero liability currently.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Seems to me that the protection may best lie in ebay mandating the use of an escrow service for specific categories of auctions from specific locations based on some standard...something more specific than plethora.
Possibly too a variation on the existing escrow approach where authentication is part of the service. The level of service provided could vary based on the price of the item in question.
I have on occasion requested the use of escrow when bidding on coins offered by newbie sellers from the USA. None have accepted my request yet. Leads me to think a voluntary measure will be inadequate.
The best way to fix the problem with the Chinese counterfeiters has already been addressed by PCGS: work with the FBI, Customs and Secret Service. Chinese law enforcement will get involved and, based I what I have read about the Chinese judicial system, the penalty will be severe.
"La Vostra Nonna Ha Faccia Del Fungo"
Absolutely. If it goes on, it will only get worse and worse.
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This is silly, and I am surprised at PCGS for stating this.
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<< <i>i wonder if the US sent "fake" nuclear parts to Taiwan to avenge these counterfeiting types???
I think most of the fakes are coming from the chinese mainland rather than Taiwan.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
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<< <i>Simple solution: Don't buy coins off ebay except from well established legitimate dealers who will stand behind their product. >>
<< <i>A thought which could help retain confidence in the product would be to modify the cert lookup feature so it also displays a picture of the slab/label "type" used when that particular coin was slabbed. That could help immediately identify a counterfeit slab as a fake, if the fake doesn't match the actual slab/label used. >>
Brilliant! Great idea!
TD
<< <i>
<< <i>A thought which could help retain confidence in the product would be to modify the cert lookup feature so it also displays a picture of the slab/label "type" used when that particular coin was slabbed. That could help immediately identify a counterfeit slab as a fake, if the fake doesn't match the actual slab/label used. >>
Brilliant! Great idea!
TD >>
yes.....but......a couple posters here and a couple on the NGC forum have been in constant contact with one of the more professional counterfeiters churning out these slabs and coins. They have made clear that this person intends to have these intitial slabs be the warning shot, and they will continue to upgrade and improve their slabs. The idea he had of linking the exact slab and label may work for a short while, but it also gives the counterfeiters a nice clear picture on how to duplicate that exact slab/label to really fool people. That, coupled with the counterfeiters idea of using real coins (that are a grade or two lower) in fake slabs, will keep them one step ahead of the TPG; until of course, said TPG devises a whole new counterfeit resistant slab.
Of course that creates the issue of colletors/dealers sending their coins back in to have them re-slabbed into the new holders: I doubt PCGS would want the risk of the slab sealers taking a fake coin from a fake slab, and resealing it into a legit slab. The solution is to then have a dedicated authenticator to take a look at the coin and the slab, and determine if the grade fits and the slab is legit, before allowing it to be re-slabbed. I'm sure this service will cetainly cost more than the nominal $5 fee charged now, and this would dissuade "widget" from being re-submitted for this service, thus making Morgans, Walkers and other coins more likely to be looked at as a target for counterfeiters and looked at in a negative light by collectors.
<< <i>i am happy that i collect Proof Jefferson Nickels. >>
Deep Cameo jeffersons 1950 thru 59 due for production in the fall.. if you put your order in now you can get consecutive numbers
what makes you think jefferson proofs are immune..
<< <i>
<< <i>i am happy that i collect Proof Jefferson Nickels. >>
Deep Cameo jeffersons 1950 thru 59 due for production in the fall.. if you put your order in now you can get consecutive numbers
what makes you think jefferson proofs are immune.. >>
IMO the Jeffersons proofs remark is in regards to target markets for fakes slabs or coins.
The profit motive is the drive in any business, and they are looking for massive profit margins in fogeries.
Lower value coins that are more common will not only sell for alot less (a fake slab will cost about the same regardless of the coin inside) but will have a slower turn over in general.
High profit fast turn over is what these scam artist are looking for, Jefferson proofs in general don't meet that profile.
I'd hate to be the owners of the LEGIT coins with the cert number these counterfeits were copied from. I imagine in a short time, the list of known counterfeits will be carried by nearly every coin dealer... imagine when the original shows up for sale.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>i am happy that i collect Proof Jefferson Nickels. >>
Deep Cameo jeffersons 1950 thru 59 due for production in the fall.. if you put your order in now you can get consecutive numbers
what makes you think jefferson proofs are immune.. >>
IMO the Jeffersons proofs remark is in regards to target markets for fakes slabs or coins.
The profit motive is the drive in any business, and they are looking for massive profit margins in fogeries.
Lower value coins that are more common will not only sell for alot less (a fake slab will cost about the same regardless of the coin inside) but will have a slower turn over in general.
High profit fast turn over is what these scam artist are looking for, Jefferson proofs in general don't meet that profile. >>
well let's see a deep cameo 1953 proof in pf65 is in the pcgs guide for over 12,000 ... sounds like a high profit for a nickel to me... but I'm just a poor country boy
<< <i>I think PCGS will have the clout to get Ebay off their A**es and cancel all Ebay coin listings from China. >>
I don't think so. PCGS' market cap is miniscule compared to Ebay. Also, most companies salivate at the prospect of getting market share in China - they have so many people!
Let's let the legit Chinese sellers get stung because of these fakes. When they complain to their own government something may finally get done.
Hasn't worked for the "legit" Muslims.
Is that really a problem? Or, for that matter, anything new?