Does the fact that Greysheet is out to lunch...

tradedollarnut

...contribute to grade inflation?

In the series I collect, Greysheet has been laughable. $4k sight seen bid for an MS64 and 20k sight seen bid for a gem seated dollar? The last PCGS gem seated dollar that sold at auction brought over $60k and resold immediately for over $70k! Does this disconnection from reality contribute to the services being a little lax [ie: this coin is worth $20k so we need to put it in a gem holder]?

PerryHall

I doubt the TPG's allow the grey sheet to dictate grading standards.

tradedollarnut

<< <i>I doubt the TPG's allow the grey sheet to dictate grading standards. >>



Define 'market grading'.

jmski52

I daresay that you, TDN have a much better handle on current pricing in your specialty than does Greysheet. No?

Doogy

<< <i>

<< <i>I doubt the TPG's allow the grey sheet to dictate grading standards. >>



Define 'market grading'. >>



Bingo! exactly what i was thinking. the TPGs widely use the grey sheet to "make the market", instead of following it.

wondercoin

TDN - Why not just address the problem yourself by having Legend post a $50,000 bid on CCE for decent 65 grade coins since, from what I see, the sheet pulls its information from actual and legitimate CCE bids (among other things)? On top of that, you might even buy a coin or two at your bid in the process!

Wondercoin

BECOKA

So you are saying graysheet is a dealers best friend in your series? Buy for 20K sell for 60K is not a bad days profit.

tradedollarnut

<< <i>TDN - Why not just address the problem yourself by having Legend post a $50,000 bid on CCE for decent 65 grade coins since, from what I see, the sheet pulls its information from actual and legitimate CCE bids (among other things)? On top of that, you might even buy a coin or two at your bid in the process!

Wondercoin >>



Bids are moving up.

sturmgrenadier

As a new collector, I find having a current copy of the CDN to bring to a show to be of limited utility in helping me to reasonably price coins at shows. I thought that subscribing to this publication would give me leverage to bargain with dealers and/or keep me from getting fleeced. If I see a coin that I'm interested in (for example a Capped Bust Half) in a dealer's wares, I dutifully look up its value in the CDN. But often dealers will tell me 'the sheet can't keep up with the movement in prices', 'the CDN is disconnected from the reality of the bourse' 'you won't be able to find this coin anywhere for sheet' or 'pick another another expression claiming that the greysheet does not accurately reflect prices in the real world.' Please keep in mind that I am talking about blast-white coins that don't exhibit any price-distorting features such as killer eye appeal, mega-strike, etc.

seanq

<< <i>If I see a coin that I'm interested in (for example a Capped Bust Half) in a dealer's wares, I dutifully look up its value in the CDN. But often dealers will tell me 'the sheet can't keep up with the movement in prices', 'the CDN is disconnected from the reality of the bourse' 'you won't be able to find this coin anywhere for sheet' or 'pick another another expression claiming that the greysheet does not accurately reflect prices in the real world.' >>




Try and sell them a couple of coins and see if they're singing the same tune.


Sean Reynolds

ultradmpldollars

In most cases dealers can't even buy at sheet price in certain series, and often greysheet is thrown out the door.

So when customers come to a show with a greysheet expecting to pay in that neighborhood, often are turned down and leave upset. JMO

I have even noticed the number of retail customers with greysheets at shows expecting to pay bid/ask or below for quality material, and it just won't happen when dealers can't even find material to replace, or even have the opportunity to buy back at those prices.

Doogy

<< <i>

<< <i>If I see a coin that I'm interested in (for example a Capped Bust Half) in a dealer's wares, I dutifully look up its value in the CDN. But often dealers will tell me 'the sheet can't keep up with the movement in prices', 'the CDN is disconnected from the reality of the bourse' 'you won't be able to find this coin anywhere for sheet' or 'pick another another expression claiming that the greysheet does not accurately reflect prices in the real world.' >>




Try and sell them a couple of coins and see if they're singing the same tune.


Sean Reynolds >>




so true..... after they spout off with that rhetoric, reach into your back pocket and pull out some nice examples and see if you get the same courtesy.

boiler78

I have decided to let my Greysheet subscription lapse. IMO it is a terrible waste of trees!! I never thought I would say it but the PCGS price guide is a much more accurate indicator of current market values.

Walkerguy21D

GS's usefulness is dependent on the series, the show (venue), and the dealer. At shows like FUN, when shopping for high powered material at the big retailer's tables, it is of no use. Likewise for important coins at the major auctions. For circ type and common to semikey coins in date traded series at smaller shows, it is very useful. Also useful when selling, at least to provide some type of 'floor' for widgets you may be selling.

coolest

<< <i>

<< <i>If I see a coin that I'm interested in (for example a Capped Bust Half) in a dealer's wares, I dutifully look up its value in the CDN. But often dealers will tell me 'the sheet can't keep up with the movement in prices', 'the CDN is disconnected from the reality of the bourse' 'you won't be able to find this coin anywhere for sheet' or 'pick another another expression claiming that the greysheet does not accurately reflect prices in the real world.' >>




Try and sell them a couple of coins and see if they're singing the same tune.

Exactly!! "Unfortunately the coins you are selling are tracked perfectly by the Grey Sheet"

But on the other hand I don't think dealers can find nice coins for Grey Sheet either (at least not very often). By nice I mean original key/semi key dates.


Sean Reynolds >>

coolest

<< <i>I have decided to let my Greysheet subscription lapse. IMO it is a terrible waste of trees!! I never thought I would say it but the PCGS price guide is a much more accurate indicator of current market values. >>



Maybe if you want to know what something might cost you. But if you want to know what your coins are worth if you would like to sell then you should consult the GS for the upper end price/estimate that you can expect from a dealer.

Unknown

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Mowgli

I would agree with PerryHall that TPGs do not let the GreySheet dictate their grading standards. I am less certain that grade inflation is not affected by retail prices. The inaccuracy of the GreySheet might have nothing to do with grade inflation.

e.g.) If I am buying coins per the Grey Sheet I have a huge incentive not to provide information that prices are going up. Or there is no way to incorporate non-technical coin attributes.

The question of grade inflation might be best answered by PCGS or NGC (I hope that they do not claim that there is no grade inflation). My personal view is that there should be no such thing as "market" grading. I'd prefer a technical grade and let the marketeers wax eloquently as to why we should pay more for one coin over another especially since we vary on what we think "attractive" is. If a coin is the best in the world at VF-35, I see no reason to market grade it AU58. Methinks that Registry sets might be more responsible for grade inflation than the GreySheet.

If I am off base, it's okay - I'll just pretend I was talking to my wife.

TwoSides2aCoin

If you rub two greysheets together real fast, it softens them up for use in the bathroom.

Blackhawk

In numismatics, I've noticed a few "givens" that seem to be accepted by everyone, yet must be laughable to those who don't collect...the Greysheet is one of these. Just look at the comments from seasoned collectors in this thread - people accept that this pricing guide, which some people look at as the bible, is completely flawed, yet somehow it's still used by them as a price guide. Very weird.

I could see that maybe 20 years ago the price guides for coins would take some time to update, but are we to believe that it takes months or years to add recent sales to this database in today's electronic world? Do they only have one part-time employee to handle the updates or what? When collectors see a list of all the "numismatic experts" who contribute to these pricing guides, yet laugh about the guides being close to useless, what does this say about those who set the prices for the guides? It makes one wonder who puts the sheet together and why it takes so long for the prices to change in the guides.

Fairlaneman

<< <i>I have decided to let my Greysheet subscription lapse. IMO it is a terrible waste of trees!! I never thought I would say it but the PCGS price guide is a much more accurate indicator of current market values. >>



Even the PCGS price guide is getting blown away with prices paid. I have noticed this for the last 4 or 5 months. Not so much in the higher grades but more so in the collector grades of 64 and 65 within the series I frequent. I guess a bunch of dumb collectors and dealers are around now days....

Ken

RichieURich

<< <i>. . .I could see that maybe 20 years ago the price guides for coins would take some time to update, but are we to believe that it takes months or years to add recent sales to this database in today's electronic world? Do they only have one part-time employee to handle the updates or what? >>


I have no idea why certain coins repeatedly sell at auctions by the major auction houses at multiples of Greysheet, yet the auction results (which certainly are readily available) are never used to update the Greysheet. Does anyone know (1) what sources of information the Greysheet uses to develop its values, and (2) why results of major auctions are seemingly never reflected in the Greysheet?

Barndog

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I have decided to let my Greysheet subscription lapse. IMO it is a terrible waste of trees!! I never thought I would say it but the PCGS price guide is a much more accurate indicator of current market values. >>



Maybe if you want to know what something might cost you. But if you want to know what your coins are worth if you would like to sell then you should consult the GS for the upper end price/estimate that you can expect from a dealer. >>




Bingo, isn't that a shame for us typical collectors. I buy at whatever price I can get a beautiful coin, usually the dealer commands that or auction climbs to that but when I go to sell the dealers all quote my grey sheet which is typically $1,000's (enen 10's of $1,000's) lower than what they will sell it for, just ask me when i want to buy it back from them. As far as I am concerned the Grey Sheet is a scam for the dealers, by low(@ GS) and sell high (to YS). >>



no, some dealers go to auction prices realized when making a "buy offer" -- of course, they look for a POS coin that sold low to help formulate the offer

coinkat

I agree that the greysheet is out to lunch in connection with quality coins... there is a disconnect there.

I understand your point about value and condition rarities... and the concept of market grading. I just think that there has been a two tiered market... one of quality which will sell and medocrity which is a more difficult sell, especially among specific series such as Seated Dollars where quality in several grades is underappreciated

MrEureka

In the series I collect, Greysheet has been laughable. $4k sight seen bid for an MS64 and 20k sight seen bid for a gem seated dollar? The last PCGS gem seated dollar that sold at auction brought over $60k and resold immediately for over $70k! Does this disconnection from reality contribute to the services being a little lax [ie: this coin is worth $20k so we need to put it in a gem holder]?

Not at all. Compare the average quality of an MS 65 with motto quarter to an average MS 65 seated dollar and you'll see the standard is more consistent than you think.

Or look at it this way. The Greysheet is more or less accurate on relatively common coins. Therefore, even if the TPGs allowed the Greysheet to influence their grading -which I don't believe they do - they would still have to grade the more common coins "accurately". So now, ask yourself: Are the TPGs going to intentionally grade common coins accurately, but then intentionally grade rare coins - make that just the ones they think are underpriced on the sheets - to a different, looser standard? Of course they won't. In fact, the graders wouldn't even know how to do that if they wanted to.

moonshine

can't keep up with the market? doesn't it come out once a week?

EagleEye

The grey sheet monitors CCE (a CLCT division) and Coin Net for dealer buys and sells. This works for coins that coin shops buy and want to get rid of, or stuff coin shops need to buy from other dealers for stock. Proof sets, rolls, commems, Morgan dollars, gold, etc. There is an active market and dealers need to know what to pay.

Some dealers have puffed up certian issues from time to time so the pricing gets way out of whack. 1909 Indians in circ grades for instance. Sure, one dealer is paying those prices, but it is inflated.

On the other hand there are no bids or low bids for many classic coins and stuff nobody dares bid on. Proof Indians, for example. There are so many spotted pieces, that a real bid for Proof Indians would bring the dealer disapointment.


They used to take dealers buy invoices as part of their data, but no more. This alone has made their pricing irrelevant in many cases.

Julio

I've never used the Greyheet.

IMO, prices from past auctions, sales, etc. are far more reliable. jws

SeattleSlammer

greysheet never applies to beautiful toned coins anyways

percyb

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>If I see a coin that I'm interested in (for example a Capped Bust Half) in a dealer's wares, I dutifully look up its value in the CDN. But often dealers will tell me 'the sheet can't keep up with the movement in prices', 'the CDN is disconnected from the reality of the bourse' 'you won't be able to find this coin anywhere for sheet' or 'pick another another expression claiming that the greysheet does not accurately reflect prices in the real world.' >>




Try and sell them a couple of coins and see if they're singing the same tune.


Sean Reynolds >>




so true..... after they spout off with that rhetoric, reach into your back pocket and pull out some nice examples and see if you get the same courtesy. >>



Better yet, approach them and ask them what their market is--their bid and offer--before tipping your hat as to whether or not you're selling or buying.

coindeuce

<< <i>In the series I collect, Greysheet has been laughable. $4k sight seen bid for an MS64 and 20k sight seen bid for a gem seated dollar? The last PCGS gem seated dollar that sold at auction brought over $60k and resold immediately for over $70k! Does this disconnection from reality contribute to the services being a little lax [ie: this coin is worth $20k so we need to put it in a gem holder]?

Not at all. Compare the average quality of an MS 65 with motto quarter to an average MS 65 seated dollar and you'll see the standard is more consistent than you think.

Or look at it this way. The Greysheet is more or less accurate on relatively common coins. Therefore, even if the TPGs allowed the Greysheet to influence their grading -which I don't believe they do - they would still have to grade the more common coins "accurately". So now, ask yourself: Are the TPGs going to intentionally grade common coins accurately, but then intentionally grade rare coins - make that just the ones they think are underpriced on the sheets - to a different, looser standard? Of course they won't. In fact, the graders wouldn't even know how to do that if they wanted to. >>



Sorry Andy, your last sentence doesn't hold any weight with me. I just returned a '72-CC quarter in a PCGS VF-30 holder that if properly graded, I would have been a buyer of at nearly 2X G.S. The coin was cleaned, porous and scratched.

MrEureka

Sorry Andy, your last sentence doesn't hold any weight with me. I just returned a '72-CC quarter in a PCGS VF-30 holder that if properly graded, I would have been a buyer of at nearly 2X G.S. The coin was cleaned, porous and scratched.

The graders didn't cut the coin slack because it's too low on the sheets. They cut it slack because they've come to expect rare CC quarters to look like sh*t. It's a subtle distinction, but important.

Barberian

If the GS is so inaccurate, then why doesn't someone come up with their own "Yellow Sheet" with more reliable values? Seems like a nice opportunity for someone who loves coins and loves computer databases to combine their interests and come out with a new grading guide. Pass them out at major coin shows, then offer subscriptions and advertising.

BlindedByEgo

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I have decided to let my Greysheet subscription lapse. IMO it is a terrible waste of trees!! I never thought I would say it but the PCGS price guide is a much more accurate indicator of current market values. >>



Maybe if you want to know what something might cost you. But if you want to know what your coins are worth if you would like to sell then you should consult the GS for the upper end price/estimate that you can expect from a dealer. >>




Bingo, isn't that a shame for us typical collectors. I buy at whatever price I can get a beautiful coin, usually the dealer commands that or auction climbs to that but when I go to sell the dealers all quote my grey sheet which is typically $1,000's (enen 10's of $1,000's) lower than what they will sell it for, just ask me when i want to buy it back from them. As far as I am concerned the Grey Sheet is a scam for the dealers, by low(@ GS) and sell high (to YS). >>



I can PM you a short list of dealers who will never insult a buyer with Greysheet bid for truly desireable material. For widgets, it's not that far off.

Unknown

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