I agree with Ryan, I dont see how anyone can say that SGC is garbage. I think there is a much bigger market for PSA due to the registry but thats about it, I am the guy who Ryan mentioned about the Baugh card, I stole it off the Bay IMO as he did with his Van Brocklin card he told you about. There are many deals to be had equally in PSA as SGC likewise to inflated prices. When it comes to Vintage Football some cards are so hard to come by that it wouldnt matter to too many people if the card was found in either slab, I think many people are confident that an SGC will cross right over to a PSA slab.
As far as the .5 bummpage I havnt seen too many either, I still think its in its infant stages right now..
Edit- And absolutly you are entitled to your opinion, I just think you may be a little harsh in calling SGC garbage.
<< <i>"As paying members of PSA and customers who have sent cards in for a review they have the right to voice dissatisfaction for what they perceive is a strategy on PSA's part to limit .5 bumps. "
Just as I have a right to have an opposite view. >>
I agree with your right to post the opposite view...I am just having a hard time figuring out how your post bashing SGC is actually posting the opposite view? To me it was the old deflection tactic....deflect attention away from the real issue by bashing SGC. The ongoing discussion had nothing to do with SGC.
Here are the numbers updates to reflect submission data added to this thread since last night:
frankhardy: 0 out of 70 uniship: 1 out of 256 smtjoy: 0 out of 31 Big80's: 0 out of 103 VitoCo1972: 0 out of 10 shagrotn77: 0 out of 30 SDavid: 36 out of 200 bobbybakeriv: 0 out of 15 leathtech: 2 out of 34 Onlythe10's: 1 out of 11 paleocards: 1 out of 6 Leaffan: 4 out of 24
TOTAL: 45 out of 780 = 5.8 percent >>
Great, BUT!!!! How many of those 780 cards are graded 9 or 10? There is no such thing as a 9.5. Say half of them are graded 9 or better that leaves you with 390 cards then factor in what I said about the exceptional cards getting the bumps the numbers are pretty close to accurate.
When grading a card there are generally 4 accepted things to look at Centering,Edges, Corners and Surface. If say a card displays 3 of those that would be 9's and the other is a solid 8 candidate then the card should get an 8.5 however if say the edges and centering are 8's and the other 2 are 9s then it should just get an 8. That is how I would figure it out.
I don't really care that much one way or the other...as everyone knows I've long since stopped submitting cards to any grading company.
The point I was trying to make is that people seem to be overlooking the fact that since PSA is a VOLUME BASED BUSINESS, they have a very strong financial incentive to try to increase the number of submissions by any way possible, including being stingy with half-point grades.
Don't forget that Joe is without a doubt a very savvy businessman who knows exactly how to manipulate his customers. By instituting the half point grading system he is getting people to pay two, three, and even four times to get the exact same card graded over and over again in a vain quest for a bump. While this will be great for PSA's finances in the short term, they are walking a very fine line. Irritate too many customers, and you will lose more business over the long term than you gain over the short term.
While Stown is right in that the sample size that has been gathered on this thread so far is probably too small in the context of PSA's overall submissions to reach a level of statistical significance, that does not mean that the trend is not meaningful or worth monitoring. Add in the submissions reported by 123slider and PackCollector and you are now at 54 bumps out of 1045 submissions, which is 5.2%. Even if you argue that this sample is non-representative because of its small size, the true bumpage rate isn't going to deviate a huge amount from the sample. It may be as high as around 10-15%, but that is still pretty low, even accounting for the fact that some of the cards being submitted recevied nines and therefore weren't eligible for half-point grades.
Or to put it another way, I bet people have been expecting to receive bumps/half-grades on far more than 10-15% of the cards they've been submitting, especially given that many submitters have been painstakingly going through their cards and only selecting the best ones to resubmit. But of course if Joe had come out and said at the start that only 10-15% of all cards would be getting half-point grades/bumps, PSA would have gotten a lot fewer submissions (and made a lot less money) over the past few months.
<< <i>The point I was trying to make is that people seem to be overlooking the fact that since PSA is a VOLUME BASED BUSINESS, they have a very strong financial incentive to try to increase the number of submissions by any way possible, including being stingy with half-point grades.
Don't forget that Joe is without a doubt a very savvy businessman who knows exactly how to manipulate his customers. By instituting the half point grading system he is getting people to pay two, three, and even four times to get the exact same card graded over and over again in a vain quest for a bump. While this will be great for PSA's finances in the short term, they are walking a very fine line. Irritate too many customers, and you will lose more business over the long term than you gain over the short term. >>
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but your whole point is wrong.
People have been cracking and resubmitting since the beginning.
The only difference being you may get a small pop for your persistance.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
I hate to be the bearer of sobering or bad news, BUT - all the half grade thing will do is EXPOSE PSA for the absolute joke that it is when it comes to "standards".
LISTEN TO THIS AND LEARN IT PEOPLE: Grading is totally subjective.
THIS IS NO SCIENCE as many will lead you to believe (ie - the "world series of grading" hahahah)
you will get a 7 one day, an 8 the next, a 6 the next, and evidence of trimming the next!
you will basically only get that half grade on a resubmit. if anyone disagrees - then my statistics of personal submissions will categorically and statistically refute any argument to the contrary.
i am dumping everything i have - because the half grades will expose what PSA grading has been all along - a smoke and mirrors illusion of "confidence"
thx for listening
"never be cheated - just send us your cash so we can tell you what you have"
<< <i>I hate to be the bearer of sobering or bad news, BUT - all the half grade thing will do is EXPOSE PSA for the absolute joke that it is when it comes to "standards".
LISTEN TO THIS AND LEARN IT PEOPLE: Grading is totally subjective.
THIS IS NO SCIENCE as many will lead you to believe (ie - the "world series of grading" hahahah)
you will get a 7 one day, an 8 the next, a 6 the next, and evidence of trimming the next!
you will basically only get that half grade on a resubmit. if anyone disagrees - then my statistics of personal submissions will categorically and statistically refute any argument to the contrary.
i am dumping everying i have - because the half grades will expose what PSA grading has been all along - a smoke and mirrors illusion of "confidence"
thx for listening
"never be cheated - just send us your cash so we can tell you what you have" >>
Okay. Now don't hold back on us. How do you really feel about half grades?
Chris
Chris My small collection Want List: '61 Topps Roy Campanella in PSA 5-7 Cardinal T206 cards Adam Wainwright GU Jersey
ive been a psa gold member for 7 years now. never and i repeat NEVER have i been more cynical and irate and frustrated over the insane inconsistency of PSA.
never be cheated - just line our pockets and we'll bump up a grade or two to make you whole
ridiculous
the end is near on the whole grading fiasco - probably a good thing, let's get back to the fundamentals of the cardboard, not the plastic
<< <i>ive been a psa gold member for 7 years now. never and i repeat NEVER have i been more cynical and irate and frustrated over the insane inconsistency of PSA.
never be cheated - just line our pockets and we'll bump up a grade or two to make you whole
ridiculous
the end is near on the whole grading fiasco - probably a good thing, let's get back to the fundamentals of the cardboard, not the plastic >>
I think that may be a little harsh, but then again I've only been a paying member of PSA for almost 3 months now. So far I've been plesently surprised. The grades have been right on in my opinion and the turn around time has been very nice surprise. I had a modern special pop after 6 days today and my first sub took less than 2 weeks from the day that I sent them out to the day I got them back.
As for the half point grading, I think it is just a transition period. I think the graders are adjusting to the use of the .5 and we as consumers are still trying to figure out what the qualifications are for a .5 grade. Time will tell but I think the half grades could be nice.
I am going to disagree that "the end is near on the whole grading fiasco." I think there will always be a need for the service, even if it just an opinion on authanticity or alterations. But I do agree that it would be nice if it was more about the cards than the plastic they are entombed in.
Chris
Chris My small collection Want List: '61 Topps Roy Campanella in PSA 5-7 Cardinal T206 cards Adam Wainwright GU Jersey
it's a scam folks. you might not agree now - but one day you will come around. if it is not consistent and if half grades are not objectively assigned (as opposed to only resubs) - then what we have is nothing short of anarchy.
"If it is not consistent and if half grades are not objectively assigned (as opposed to only resubs) - then what we have is nothing short of anarchy. "
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
I see no VALID evidence that we are headed toward the dire circumstance described.
We have about 30+ business-days under the revised scheme. More time is needed to get the "new" product into the market.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
To get an accurate analysis of how the half grades play out for sellers and buyers both it will take several years to figure out. It's way too early to get an accurate assesment. I happen to like the half grades though I haven't purchased one yet. Just waiting to see the market settle and then buy the cards I want. I think everyone can agree that grading is subjective, I have purchased 8's that I thought looked better than 9's. My main glitch is centering and if I see a card in a 8 holder that I like, it's all good. Sometimes the 9's really look a lot better. I still can't see a huge difference between a 9 and a 10.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. " ~Frank Sinatra
i recently cracked out 11 cards and sent them back to psa. 8 came back a different grade. some better, some worse. NONE of the 8 changes came within a half grade of the first time.
it's a joke folks. sorry to burst your bubble. i would love to meet the people that actually grade. i would take a wild guess and venture to say they are not lifelong grading experts - more like college kids paying the bills. just a hunch based on the ridiculous crap i have seen in recent months. Joe Orlando ignoring my email after a $2k submission about sums it up as icing on the cake as well. Goodnight now.
Then why crack and resubmit? Sorry have never submitted cards. Weren't you happy with the cards you bought in the first place? Not trying to flame you, just asking.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. " ~Frank Sinatra
i resubmitted because i thought they were undergraded. the new grades came back ALL OVER the place. i've only been collecting for 32 years though, so perhaps i just cant see as well as those expert graders. hahaha.
look - i'll continue to submit for one reason only - MONEY to sell. when it comes to assessing the condition of a card for collecting purposes, i will substantially disount the number psa assigns - because their consistency is crap - plain and simple.
then i guess you can be frustrated. like i said earlier i have never submitted so i don't know what that is like. for me, the cards i buy seem to be accurately graded and i buy solely on what the card looks like. was just saying that it will take a long time to see how the half grades shake out.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. " ~Frank Sinatra
I recently submmited 170 cards for grading. I received nine 1/2 grades. By the way, does anyone know when PSA will start including 1/2 grades in the SMR?
<< <i>Joe Orlando ignoring my email after a $2k submission about sums it up as icing on the cake as well. >>
Did you try calling him?
If you did, then you have a legit arguement.
If not, then I strongly suggest you do, especially on questions regarding a $2K sub.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Even with the inconsistency of PSA it is still better then what we had.
In my latest submission, out of 21 hi dollar cards maybe 1 was graded differently then what I expected. My theory is simply I send a card in to be graded and whatever it grades it grades and it is then over. Of course if you crack out and resubmit you will get a different grade, I bet the same could be said if any of us did the grading.
Their is no big difference between grades in many cases.
It still beats the alternative. The buying public wants the assurance that grading gives it. My own collection is mainly raw, why? Because I can comfortably grade cards.
Comments
As far as the .5 bummpage I havnt seen too many either, I still think its in its infant stages right now..
Edit- And absolutly you are entitled to your opinion, I just think you may be a little harsh in calling SGC garbage.
<< <i>"As paying members of PSA and customers who have sent cards in for a review they have the right to voice dissatisfaction for what they perceive is a strategy on PSA's part to limit .5 bumps. "
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Just as I have a right to have an opposite view. >>
I agree with your right to post the opposite view...I am just having a hard time figuring out how your post bashing SGC is actually posting the opposite view? To me it was the old deflection tactic....deflect attention away from the real issue by bashing SGC. The ongoing discussion had nothing to do with SGC.
View Vintage Football Cards For Sale
<< <i>Stown,
Your rant is not even worth responding to....
Here are the numbers updates to reflect submission data added to this thread since last night:
frankhardy: 0 out of 70
uniship: 1 out of 256
smtjoy: 0 out of 31
Big80's: 0 out of 103
VitoCo1972: 0 out of 10
shagrotn77: 0 out of 30
SDavid: 36 out of 200
bobbybakeriv: 0 out of 15
leathtech: 2 out of 34
Onlythe10's: 1 out of 11
paleocards: 1 out of 6
Leaffan: 4 out of 24
TOTAL: 45 out of 780 = 5.8 percent >>
Great, BUT!!!! How many of those 780 cards are graded 9 or 10? There is no such thing as a 9.5. Say half of them are graded 9 or better that leaves you with 390 cards then factor in what I said about the exceptional cards getting the bumps the numbers are pretty close to accurate.
When grading a card there are generally 4 accepted things to look at Centering,Edges, Corners and Surface. If say a card displays 3 of those that would be 9's and the other is a solid 8 candidate then the card should get an 8.5 however if say the edges and centering are 8's and the other 2 are 9s then it should just get an 8. That is how I would figure it out.
The point I was trying to make is that people seem to be overlooking the fact that since PSA is a VOLUME BASED BUSINESS, they have a very strong financial incentive to try to increase the number of submissions by any way possible, including being stingy with half-point grades.
Don't forget that Joe is without a doubt a very savvy businessman who knows exactly how to manipulate his customers. By instituting the half point grading system he is getting people to pay two, three, and even four times to get the exact same card graded over and over again in a vain quest for a bump. While this will be great for PSA's finances in the short term, they are walking a very fine line. Irritate too many customers, and you will lose more business over the long term than you gain over the short term.
While Stown is right in that the sample size that has been gathered on this thread so far is probably too small in the context of PSA's overall submissions to reach a level of statistical significance, that does not mean that the trend is not meaningful or worth monitoring. Add in the submissions reported by 123slider and PackCollector and you are now at 54 bumps out of 1045 submissions, which is 5.2%. Even if you argue that this sample is non-representative because of its small size, the true bumpage rate isn't going to deviate a huge amount from the sample. It may be as high as around 10-15%, but that is still pretty low, even accounting for the fact that some of the cards being submitted recevied nines and therefore weren't eligible for half-point grades.
Or to put it another way, I bet people have been expecting to receive bumps/half-grades on far more than 10-15% of the cards they've been submitting, especially given that many submitters have been painstakingly going through their cards and only selecting the best ones to resubmit. But of course if Joe had come out and said at the start that only 10-15% of all cards would be getting half-point grades/bumps, PSA would have gotten a lot fewer submissions (and made a lot less money) over the past few months.
out of 21 super express, express and regular service cards I got 2 cards graded .5
All the others graded as I expected. I expected 2 or 3 .5's and I got 2
I thought they were consistent with my pregrades.
Steve
If you bring up those threads when PSA announced the .5 grading you will find that I
claimed we would be seeing 15% getting .5's
It does not surprise me that this is what we are seeing.
Steve
<< <i>The point I was trying to make is that people seem to be overlooking the fact that since PSA is a VOLUME BASED BUSINESS, they have a very strong financial incentive to try to increase the number of submissions by any way possible, including being stingy with half-point grades.
Don't forget that Joe is without a doubt a very savvy businessman who knows exactly how to manipulate his customers. By instituting the half point grading system he is getting people to pay two, three, and even four times to get the exact same card graded over and over again in a vain quest for a bump. While this will be great for PSA's finances in the short term, they are walking a very fine line. Irritate too many customers, and you will lose more business over the long term than you gain over the short term. >>
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but your whole point is wrong.
People have been cracking and resubmitting since the beginning.
The only difference being you may get a small pop for your persistance.
see that they have VERY few .5 items currently listed.
That is because they get the 9's and 10's.
Steve
;-)
LISTEN TO THIS AND LEARN IT PEOPLE: Grading is totally subjective.
THIS IS NO SCIENCE as many will lead you to believe (ie - the "world series of grading" hahahah)
you will get a 7 one day, an 8 the next, a 6 the next, and evidence of trimming the next!
you will basically only get that half grade on a resubmit. if anyone disagrees - then my statistics of personal submissions will categorically and statistically refute any argument to the contrary.
i am dumping everything i have - because the half grades will expose what PSA grading has been all along - a smoke and mirrors illusion of "confidence"
thx for listening
"never be cheated - just send us your cash so we can tell you what you have"
<< <i>I hate to be the bearer of sobering or bad news, BUT - all the half grade thing will do is EXPOSE PSA for the absolute joke that it is when it comes to "standards".
LISTEN TO THIS AND LEARN IT PEOPLE: Grading is totally subjective.
THIS IS NO SCIENCE as many will lead you to believe (ie - the "world series of grading" hahahah)
you will get a 7 one day, an 8 the next, a 6 the next, and evidence of trimming the next!
you will basically only get that half grade on a resubmit. if anyone disagrees - then my statistics of personal submissions will categorically and statistically refute any argument to the contrary.
i am dumping everying i have - because the half grades will expose what PSA grading has been all along - a smoke and mirrors illusion of "confidence"
thx for listening
"never be cheated - just send us your cash so we can tell you what you have" >>
Okay. Now don't hold back on us. How do you really feel about half grades?
Chris
My small collection
Want List:
'61 Topps Roy Campanella in PSA 5-7
Cardinal T206 cards
Adam Wainwright GU Jersey
never be cheated - just line our pockets and we'll bump up a grade or two to make you whole
ridiculous
the end is near on the whole grading fiasco - probably a good thing, let's get back to the fundamentals of the cardboard, not the plastic
<< <i>ive been a psa gold member for 7 years now. never and i repeat NEVER have i been more cynical and irate and frustrated over the insane inconsistency of PSA.
never be cheated - just line our pockets and we'll bump up a grade or two to make you whole
ridiculous
the end is near on the whole grading fiasco - probably a good thing, let's get back to the fundamentals of the cardboard, not the plastic >>
I think that may be a little harsh, but then again I've only been a paying member of PSA for almost 3 months now. So far I've been plesently surprised. The grades have been right on in my opinion and the turn around time has been very nice surprise. I had a modern special pop after 6 days today and my first sub took less than 2 weeks from the day that I sent them out to the day I got them back.
As for the half point grading, I think it is just a transition period. I think the graders are adjusting to the use of the .5 and we as consumers are still trying to figure out what the qualifications are for a .5 grade. Time will tell but I think the half grades could be nice.
I am going to disagree that "the end is near on the whole grading fiasco." I think there will always be a need for the service, even if it just an opinion on authanticity or alterations. But I do agree that it would be nice if it was more about the cards than the plastic they are entombed in.
Chris
My small collection
Want List:
'61 Topps Roy Campanella in PSA 5-7
Cardinal T206 cards
Adam Wainwright GU Jersey
it's a scam folks. you might not agree now - but one day you will come around. if it is not consistent and if half grades are not objectively assigned (as opposed to only resubs) - then what we have is nothing short of anarchy.
it's a shame really.
my 2 cents - hope i am wrong.
<< <i>my 2 cents - hope i am wrong. >>
I hope you are too.
Chris
My small collection
Want List:
'61 Topps Roy Campanella in PSA 5-7
Cardinal T206 cards
Adam Wainwright GU Jersey
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
I see no VALID evidence that we are headed toward the dire circumstance described.
We have about 30+ business-days under the revised scheme. More time is needed to
get the "new" product into the market.
wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're
going to feel all day. "
~Frank Sinatra
it's a joke folks. sorry to burst your bubble. i would love to meet the people that actually grade. i would take a wild guess and venture to say they are not lifelong grading experts - more like college kids paying the bills. just a hunch based on the ridiculous crap i have seen in recent months. Joe Orlando ignoring my email after a $2k submission about sums it up as icing on the cake as well. Goodnight now.
wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're
going to feel all day. "
~Frank Sinatra
look - i'll continue to submit for one reason only - MONEY to sell. when it comes to assessing the condition of a card for collecting purposes, i will substantially disount the number psa assigns - because their consistency is crap - plain and simple.
wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're
going to feel all day. "
~Frank Sinatra
<< <i>Joe Orlando ignoring my email after a $2k submission about sums it up as icing on the cake as well. >>
Did you try calling him?
If you did, then you have a legit arguement.
If not, then I strongly suggest you do, especially on questions regarding a $2K sub.
In my latest submission, out of 21 hi dollar cards maybe 1 was graded
differently then what I expected. My theory is simply I send a card in to be graded
and whatever it grades it grades and it is then over. Of course if you crack out and resubmit
you will get a different grade, I bet the same could be said if any of us did the grading.
Their is no big difference between grades in many cases.
It still beats the alternative. The buying public wants the assurance that
grading gives it. My own collection is mainly raw, why? Because I can comfortably grade
cards.
out of 21 cards I got 2 .5's