What influenced the size of the date punches used on dies?
fc
Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭
What influenced the size of the date punches used on dies?
I am going through my half eagles and I often look at the dates
as i scroll through the pics.
I know that the mint mark and the date were about the only things
hand punched in the liberty half eagle series. But why did the size
of the numerals vary so much? (Also the mint mark).
What influnced those decisions?
thanks for any feedback or input on this curious topic (to me at least).
Example below:
1857S
1859S
I am going through my half eagles and I often look at the dates
as i scroll through the pics.
I know that the mint mark and the date were about the only things
hand punched in the liberty half eagle series. But why did the size
of the numerals vary so much? (Also the mint mark).
What influnced those decisions?
thanks for any feedback or input on this curious topic (to me at least).
Example below:
1857S
1859S
0
Comments
-Paul
<< <i>Maybe the guy punching it needed to compensate for something.
-Paul >>
The guy punching the 1859 had good eye sight and the one punching the 1857 was like me, Half Blind
.....................................................
I'll ttt the thread, maybe some out there has an answer.
"Nah, Joe - I left them in the bucket with the scrap metal and they were thrown out. Here, use these - they can still take a few smacks with the hammer."
I knew it would happen.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I don’t think much original information has been discovered on this or mint mark sizes. The Philadelphia Mint Engraving Department records would likely contain some hints, but almost all of these records seem to have been lost or deliberately destroyed.
In the many thousands of pages of mint records (since 1873) I’ve personally been through over the past decade, I don’t recall a single reference to date or mint mark size. There might be something in earlier records, and Bob Julian would be the one to ask.
I don’t think much original information has been discovered on this or mint mark sizes. The Philadelphia Mint Engraving Department records would likely contain some hints, but almost all of these records seem to have been lost or deliberately destroyed.
In the many thousands of pages of mint records (since 1873) I’ve personally been through over the past decade, I don’t recall a single reference to date or mint mark size. There might be something in earlier records, and Bob Julian would be the one to ask.
John McCloskey, President of the Liberty Seated Collectors Club, has written extensively over the years regarding the date numeral punches used for the various Liberty Seated denominations. Several articles can be found in the Gobrecht Journal Collective Volumes 1-4 (and soon to be 5) on the subject of date numeral punches. John conducts detailed analyses, by date and denomination, but may not offer too much information as to the reasons why a specific numeral punch was selected. You might try researching his articles.
For a few dates in the half dime series I can offer a bit of insight on the selection of date numeral punches of different sizes. In 1837, the Mint introduced the new Christian Gobrecht Liberty Seated half dime design, after a run of nine years for the Reich Capped Bust design. Both designs were issued during the year 1837. Initially, the old date numeral punches for the Capped Bust design were used, yielding the so-called "Large Date" Liberty Seated issues (V1, V2, V3). Later in the year, new numeral punches were fabricated, giving us the so-called "Small Date" issues (V4, V5, V6).
In 1848 a well documented blunder was made when a dime logotype was used to punch the date into the exergue of a half dime die, giving us the V1 Large Date half dime.
In 1803 there is an obverse die which appears to have an 8 made up from two small O punches.
These are just anecdotal evidence, and do not provide any real reasons why the specific date punches were used, but they do tend to describe a pattern. Perhaps, rather than any concrete metalurgical or die sinker's technical reasons for the selection, it was simply a matter of expedience - the die sink merely used whatever was available to him at the time.
The engraver would normally try to pick a size appropriate to the design and the space available for the date. That said, they sometimes picked up a date punch intended for a different size coin, such as the (can't remember the year) $20 gold piece die dated with the silver dollar date punch.
Mint mark punches are a morass of confusion. Look at the range of sizes illustrated in Wiley & Bugert's Seated Half DOllar book. I suspect that the bottom line is that they just didn't care, though there is a remote possibility that each different mint mark punch was made by a different engraver or assistant engraver.
TD
The short answer is that there was no system. If needed, they would make one but if one was on hand at the time that would work, they would just use that.
So laziness influenced the size of the date punch more than anything else.
(Engraver William Barber did the overall designs and most portraits. Charles Barber mostly cut wreaths, leaves and ornaments although he started doing more portraits after Dir Linderman threatened to exile him to San Francisco. C. Barber’s earliest work includes the two Stella designs. Special Engraver Morgan did his own complete designs including portraits, although he did less original work after C. Barber was appointed engraver in Jan. 1880.)
more places for continued research.
Ah, the old "Rum Ration" excuse. While it is true that there were rum rations given to the employees of the first Mint, this practice was given up by the time of the move to the Second Mint, and is unlikely to account for any real blunders in their product.
<< <i>One piece we do have for the post Civil War to WW-II period is that nearly all of the date and mint mark punching was done by either assistant engravers or die sinkers. In the 1870s, William Key seemed to do only date logos, mint marks, stars and special punches such as the Gothic-style “IGWT” used on Morgan’s standard silver dollar design of 1877. He probably continued this until he died in 1910 (?)
(Engraver William Barber did the overall designs and most portraits. Charles Barber mostly cut wreaths, leaves and ornaments although he started doing more portraits after Dir Linderman threatened to exile him to San Francisco. C. Barber’s earliest work includes the two Stella designs. Special Engraver Morgan did his own complete designs including portraits, although he did less original work after C. Barber was appointed engraver in Jan. 1880.) >>
I believe that the Mint ceased dating individual dies in 1908, and used only dated hubs after that.
I am curious as to whether the Chief Engraver or an Assistant Engraver changed the dates on the hubs.
TD
date on one punch. 1898 is a time period that an article states
they were definitely used but i did not know they were used as
early as 1848 as MrHalfDime stated.
just adding that blurb for those who did not know what he meant.
Also, for many dates of half dimes during the 1840's there is evidence that the first three digits of the date (184) were part of a gang punch, and the last digit was punched in individually, or at least added to the three digit gang punch. This would account for the numerous variations in horizontal, vertical, and depth placement of the fourth digit for so many of the dates of this era, and the many last digit overdates (e.g., 1849/6, 1849/8, 1848/8/7, 1848/7/6, etc.).
Sorry I did not explain the term "logotype" earlier.
TD
So far as I have seen in mint documents, the only person ever permitted to change a hub or master die was the Engraver or the original engraver of the design. (In some instances one person engraved the obverse and another the reverse.)
(The official title was "Engraver of the United States Mint at Philadelphia." subordinate engravers were call usually called "Assistant Engraver" although Sinnock was first an "Associate Engraver" under George Morgan. Morgan was originally called "Special Engraver" and reported to the Mint Director, not the Philadelphia Mint Superintendent.)
New punch sets were ordered by John Reich when he was appointed as the Assistant Engraver in 1807.
When Reich left the Mint in 1817, he went into partnership with Henry and Richard Starr, who sold stereotype fonts for printing. They also sold the US Mint sets of punches for several years afterwards. Reich left them and went to Pittsburgh in 1820.
Charles Gobrecht also sold punch sets to the US Mint, especially when he was working there in the mid-1820's. Gobrecht was actually hired as a second engraver by Director Samuel Moore, but quit because of the pay that was offered (the same as Reich made - $700). Gobrecht could and did make more money by doing steel plate engraving for banknotes.
Henry Starr continued to sell new sytle punches to the Mint until the late 1820s. Several different size sets were ordered from Starr in 1827.
In the 1840's, there was a change from single digits to 3 and 4 digit logo punches. This came about after Gobrecht's death in 1844.
James Longacre had his difficulties in dealing with this issue for a few years after he became the Engraver in 1844.
When John Reich became the Assistant Engraver in 1807, he ordered several new sets of punches. Reich became friends with the suppliers, Henry and Richard Starr.
Reich left the Mint in April of 1817 and went into partnership with the Starr Bros., who also sold stereotype fonts for printing. This lasted until 1820 when Reich went to Pittsburgh.
Henry Starr continued to supply different size sets as requested. He sold several sets of "new style" letter and numeral punches in 1827
Christian (Chas.) Gobrecht even sold a set of punches to the US Mint in 1825. He had been working there on a commission basis since 1823 after engraver Robert Scot died. Gobrecht was actually hired by Director Samuel Moore (with the authorization of Congress) in 1828, but quit because he could make more money in the private sector engraving steel plates for bank notes.
Because of the new branch mints that were scheduled to open, Moore arranged to have Gobrecht return as a second engraver in 1835. Right after this happened, Engraver William Kneass had a severe stroke, which led Gobrecht to do most of the die work. Kneass died in 1840 and Gobrecht then became the Engraver. This lasted until 1844 when he died.
Apparently, it was up to the engraver to use the correct size and style punches. He was also the one who determined the need in ordering new sets. The sets were all individual pieces.
In 1844, when James Longacre became the Engraver, there was a change to 3 & 4 digit date logotype punches. Longacre had some real problems getting this to position properly.
The sizes of punches used for the different denominations were the responsibility of the engraver. Sometimes, he didn't make the correct choices.
edited - sorry for the double posting. My system didn't show the first one got posted.
Gobrecht experimented with a partially-dated (18__) hub in 1840(?), but when he gave up on the experiment he finished off a few working dies that had already hubbed with the 18 in them with a four-digit date punch, leaving the 18 doubled but not the rest of the date.
Most large cents from the early 1840s (pre-Longacre) show nice, neat, consistent alignment of the digits, as you would expect from a four-digit logotype.
I believe that Gobrecht should receive credit for introducing the four-digit logotype.
Tom DeLorey
K S
What influenced the size of the date punches used on dies?
I am going through my half eagles and I often look at the dates
as i scroll through the pics. I know that the mint mark and the date
were about the only things hand punched in the liberty half eagle
series. But why did the size of the numerals vary so much? (Also
the mint mark).
What influnced those decisions?
thanks for any feedback or input on this curious topic (to me at least).
The size or shape of the date numerals was pretty much at the whim of
the engraving department until after 1900. The subject is not mentioned
in the mint records with the exception of a letter in 1873 complaining that
the figure 3 looked like an 8. This was the reason for the Open and Closed
3 for that year.
Records do exist indicating, in some cases, when punches for letters or
figures were made but the directions were probably given in person rather
than in writing.
The situation is somewhat confused by the fact that from 1844 to 1853 there
were two entities dating the dies. James Longacre was the chief engraver
but did not control all of the hubs. Chief Coiner Franklin Peale's department
had some of the hubs under its control and it is not clear at present whether
Peale or Longacre was responsible for the date on a particular die..
Denga
When you get back to your library please check on this for everyone and post what you can find on when this actually began production.
You are probably correct with Gobrecht (and possibly Joseph Saxton) working on creating the new logopunches, but I don't know if they were put into use for production coinage until Longacre was left with this problem to sort out.
<< <i>CaptHenway -
When you get back to your library please check on this for everyone and post what you can find on when this actually began production.
You are probably correct with Gobrecht (and possibly Joseph Saxton) working on creating the new logopunches, but I don't know if they were put into use for production coinage until Longacre was left with this problem to sort out. >>
Will do. Hope to get out in another week or two.
In the meantime, are Bill Bugert and/or John Wright on here? If so, please PM me. If they are not, would somebody please email them to email me at TomDeLorey at AOL
Thanks
The Anheuser Busch Brewery in St. Louis finally discontinued the practice of allowing the brewery personnel to consume beer at work sometime around 1982 or 1983. Until then, they were also allowed to take a case of beer home once a week. Sometime after that, they were given a voucher to use at the grocery store. Hiccup.
I knew it would happen.