<< <i>So let me get this straight; a full date set of Lincoln cents "just happens" to include a 1909-S VDB. As a date set, it is not necessary to have a branch mint or odd variety to achieve completion. The 1909-s VDB has a new context, thereby negating its status as an extremely valuable key date? Its importance is now diluted among all the other common date cents? >>
A 1909-S VDB is certainly still valuable, but in this context (a date set of Lincolns), I don't really think it's a key, since you don't *need* it to complete the set.
edited to add... When I said "I don't really think it's a key", I meant "I don't really think it's a key for this set". I think the number one feature of a key date is that it is necessary for the completion of the set in question. >>
I think the number one feature of a key date is that it is necessary for the completion of the set in question.
I agree with this statement.I'm thinking it is the purest definition of what constitues a key possible.
Regarding 1909 SVDB and considering this issue a variety:
If one is assembling a set of 1909 SVDB's with all of its known variations of mintmark placements and "period definitions" which variation(s) of "S" and "VDB" would be the key(s) to completing such a set?
If one is assembling a one-a-year set of Lincolns,1909 SVDB would notnecessarily be considered a key would it? The true key for a one-a-year set of Lincolns is the 1922 D.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong. I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.” Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
“Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.” For Einstein, honesty was fundamental. Attention to truth in small things reflected a person’s integrity on a larger scale.
the SMS '94 and '97 nickels and the '98-S halves are indeed key coins
no question about it. Those coins command a pretty nice premium over face value, and are substantially more expensive to obtain than most coins in their series. Whether the demand holds and grows is a different question, and one that all moderns face.
<< <i>So let me get this straight; a full date set of Lincoln cents "just happens" to include a 1909-S VDB. As a date set, it is not necessary to have a branch mint or odd variety to achieve completion. The 1909-s VDB has a new context, thereby negating its status as an extremely valuable key date? Its importance is now diluted among all the other common date cents? >>
A 1909-S VDB is certainly still valuable, but in this context (a date set of Lincolns), I don't really think it's a key, since you don't *need* it to complete the set.
edited to add... When I said "I don't really think it's a key", I meant "I don't really think it's a key for this set". I think the number one feature of a key date is that it is necessary for the completion of the set in question. >>
In that light then there about 100 keys in yer basic Morgan set. Some are easier to come by than others are. The 93-s and 89-cc are generally thought of as keys because their price compared to others in the series usually puts them out of reach of your budget minded/constrained collector.
<< <i>The 1928 Peace dollar is the unquestionable key date in the series. >>
Actually no, it's a key, not the key. Ask someone doing an AU set, they'll tell you the 34-S is the Key. Ask someone doing an MS64 set and they'll you the 34-S, 24-S and 27-S are the keys. Ask a person doing an MS65 set and the 1928 would barely register in the top 10 keys to the series. Just a thought.
Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
<< <i>In that light then there about 100 keys in yer basic Morgan set. Some are easier to come by that others are. >>
I think maybe you're misreading my intent. Although there may be lots of dates necessary for completion of the set, there are typically, at most, only a few which are the hardest of the group to acquire. This would be feature #2 of a key date. Using that added guideline, there probably wouldn't be 100 keys in the Morgan set...
<< <i>The 1928 Peace dollar is the unquestionable key date in the series. >>
Actually no, it's a key, not the key. Ask someone doing an AU set, they'll tell you the 34-S is the Key. Ask someone doing an MS64 set and they'll you the 34-S, 24-S and 27-S are the keys. Ask a person doing an MS65 set and the 1928 would barely register in the top 10 keys to the series. Just a thought. >>
I was waiting for someone from the condition rarity side of the aisle to emerge. If you read my full comment, I stated that keys from most of these popular series were established long ago, and were primarily based on circulation finds, not condition rarities. I am fully aware that an MS 65 1928-S Peace dollar is much more rare than its Philadelphia counterpart. But the term "key", at least in the classic sense, would apply to a coin that was desirable in all grades. However, your point is certainly legitimate, and if I were to use your criteria, the 28 would be A key, not THE key. I never liked condition rarities, the 34-S in particular, a coin that is virtually worthless and common in lower grades. But that's a subject for another thread.
I'm with you VeryFine, I've never cared for condition rarities in any series. I would never drop $4K (or more) for an AU58 92-S or 95-O Morgan. That type of rarity doesn't interest me. I was just playing devil's advocate, the 1928 is certainly the key for most people doing Peace Dollar sets.
Positive BST transactions with: too many names to list! 36 at last count.
This has been an interesting discussion. I would like to take a second to say that the opinions I've posted here were not intended to imply that contrary opinions posted by others were in any way wrong- only different. I was just trying to make my position understood, even if it wasn't agreed with.
gosh after reading i find amazement in that no one addresses the "1964 sms" issues. they may live in the shadows or under the radar but truly are giants when rare coins are considerred and yes they are newer then 33' ;-)
everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see
gosh after reading i find amazement in that no one addresses the "1964 sms" issues. they may live in the shadows or under the radar but truly are giants when rare coins are considerred and yes they are newer then 33' ;-)
Ahem,
Finally, let's consider the Kennedy Half Series. The definition of a "key" continues to evolve here, especially in the light of the 1964 SMS discoveries, the ultra-grade SMS coins, special Matte Proof finishes or the cameo and star designations for Proofs. None of these developments really strike me as "silly" even though I might not agree with Mint policies or industry trends in grading. Does a .1 mm mark on the obverse of an MS-68 SMS Kennedy mean anything to me? Not really, because it doesn't affect my collecting habits. Is it silly that such a mark might mean the difference of a few thousand dollars in the market? I don't know why it would be considered silly, since a single grade difference has an even larger impact in many "classic" coin series. Does it qualify the coin as being a "key"? I am guessing that the overwhelming majority of Kennedy collectors would say, "yes."
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>So let me get this straight; a full date set of Lincoln cents "just happens" to include a 1909-S VDB. As a date set, it is not necessary to have a branch mint or odd variety to achieve completion. The 1909-s VDB has a new context, thereby negating its status as an extremely valuable key date? Its importance is now diluted among all the other common date cents? >>
A 1909-S VDB is certainly still valuable, but in this context (a date set of Lincolns), I don't really think it's a key, since you don't *need* it to complete the set.
edited to add... When I said "I don't really think it's a key", I meant "I don't really think it's a key for this set". I think the number one feature of a key date is that it is necessary for the completion of the set in question. >>
Your point is well taken mrpotatoheadd
I agree with this statement.I'm thinking it is the purest definition of what constitues a key possible.
Regarding 1909 SVDB and considering this issue a variety:
If one is assembling a set of 1909 SVDB's with all of its known variations of mintmark placements and "period definitions" which variation(s) of "S" and "VDB" would be the key(s) to completing such a set?
If one is assembling a one-a-year set of Lincolns,1909 SVDB would not necessarily be considered a key would it? The true key for a one-a-year set of Lincolns is the 1922 D.
“I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am. When two expeditions of scientists, financed by the Royal Academy, went forth to test my theory of relativity, I was convinced that their conclusions would tally with my hypothesis. I was not surprised when the eclipse of May 29, 1919, confirmed my intuitions. I would have been surprised if I had been wrong. I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.” Albert Einstein- quoted in Saturday Evening Post interview (1929)
“Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.” For Einstein, honesty was fundamental. Attention to truth in small things reflected a person’s integrity on a larger scale.
no question about it. Those coins command a pretty nice premium over face value, and are substantially more expensive to obtain than most coins in their series. Whether the demand holds and grows is a different question, and one that all moderns face.
<< <i>
<< <i>So let me get this straight; a full date set of Lincoln cents "just happens" to include a 1909-S VDB. As a date set, it is not necessary to have a branch mint or odd variety to achieve completion. The 1909-s VDB has a new context, thereby negating its status as an extremely valuable key date? Its importance is now diluted among all the other common date cents? >>
A 1909-S VDB is certainly still valuable, but in this context (a date set of Lincolns), I don't really think it's a key, since you don't *need* it to complete the set.
edited to add... When I said "I don't really think it's a key", I meant "I don't really think it's a key for this set". I think the number one feature of a key date is that it is necessary for the completion of the set in question. >>
In that light then there about 100 keys in yer basic Morgan set. Some are easier to come by than others are. The 93-s and 89-cc are generally thought of as keys because their price compared to others in the series usually puts them out of reach of your budget minded/constrained collector.
<< <i>The 1928 Peace dollar is the unquestionable key date in the series. >>
Actually no, it's a key, not the key. Ask someone doing an AU set, they'll tell you the 34-S is the Key. Ask someone doing an MS64 set and they'll you the 34-S, 24-S and 27-S are the keys. Ask a person doing an MS65 set and the 1928 would barely register in the top 10 keys to the series. Just a thought.
<< <i>In that light then there about 100 keys in yer basic Morgan set. Some are easier to come by that others are. >>
I think maybe you're misreading my intent. Although there may be lots of dates necessary for completion of the set, there are typically, at most, only a few which are the hardest of the group to acquire. This would be feature #2 of a key date. Using that added guideline, there probably wouldn't be 100 keys in the Morgan set...
<< <i>
<< <i>The 1928 Peace dollar is the unquestionable key date in the series. >>
Actually no, it's a key, not the key. Ask someone doing an AU set, they'll tell you the 34-S is the Key. Ask someone doing an MS64 set and they'll you the 34-S, 24-S and 27-S are the keys. Ask a person doing an MS65 set and the 1928 would barely register in the top 10 keys to the series. Just a thought. >>
I was waiting for someone from the condition rarity side of the aisle to emerge.
If you read my full comment, I stated that keys from most of these popular series were established long ago, and were primarily based on circulation finds, not condition rarities. I am fully aware that an MS 65 1928-S Peace dollar is much more rare than its Philadelphia counterpart. But the term "key", at least in the classic sense, would apply to a coin that was desirable in all grades. However, your point is certainly legitimate, and if I were to use your criteria, the 28 would be A key, not THE key.
I never liked condition rarities, the 34-S in particular, a coin that is virtually worthless and common in lower grades. But that's a subject for another thread.
they may live in the shadows or under the radar but truly are giants when rare coins are considerred and yes they are newer then 33'
;-)
they may live in the shadows or under the radar but truly are giants when rare coins are considerred and yes they are newer then 33'
;-)
Ahem,
Finally, let's consider the Kennedy Half Series. The definition of a "key" continues to evolve here, especially in the light of the 1964 SMS discoveries, the ultra-grade SMS coins, special Matte Proof finishes or the cameo and star designations for Proofs. None of these developments really strike me as "silly" even though I might not agree with Mint policies or industry trends in grading. Does a .1 mm mark on the obverse of an MS-68 SMS Kennedy mean anything to me? Not really, because it doesn't affect my collecting habits. Is it silly that such a mark might mean the difference of a few thousand dollars in the market? I don't know why it would be considered silly, since a single grade difference has an even larger impact in many "classic" coin series. Does it qualify the coin as being a "key"? I am guessing that the overwhelming majority of Kennedy collectors would say, "yes."
I knew it would happen.
no reason they shouldn't be addressed twice anyway
"1964 sms"
They are kinda cool.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>gosh after reading i find amazement in that no one addresses the "1964 sms" issues. >>
On page 1 of this thread, I wrote: "I don't include SMS/proofs in my set, so they are not keys *to me*."