Why are GAI graded cards so cheap...
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I've been observing that GAI graded vintage cards are only going for about 40%-60% of similar PSA graded cards.
My question is why? As far as I know, GAI has always been considered to be a reputable and accurate card grader.
While their December meltdown almost certainly lost them a lot of trust and customers, that alone shouldn't affect people's opinions of their grading accuracy.
The reason I ask is that tonight I was able to pick up a GAI 9 graded 1958 Hank Aaron AS from a reputable dealer on Ebay for $1025. SMR on this card is $2800, which means that I picked it up for about 37% of SMR. Additionally, a few months ago I picked up a GAI 8 graded 1955 Topps Ted Williams for $1100, which was only 44% of SMR ($2500).
Both of these cards are absolutely gorgeous and have great crossover potential should I ever need to sell them (they're for my personal collection, so I have no immediate plans to do so).
Here's the scan of the 55T Williams:
So, any particular reason why GAI graded vintage card are selling so cheap?
My question is why? As far as I know, GAI has always been considered to be a reputable and accurate card grader.
While their December meltdown almost certainly lost them a lot of trust and customers, that alone shouldn't affect people's opinions of their grading accuracy.
The reason I ask is that tonight I was able to pick up a GAI 9 graded 1958 Hank Aaron AS from a reputable dealer on Ebay for $1025. SMR on this card is $2800, which means that I picked it up for about 37% of SMR. Additionally, a few months ago I picked up a GAI 8 graded 1955 Topps Ted Williams for $1100, which was only 44% of SMR ($2500).
Both of these cards are absolutely gorgeous and have great crossover potential should I ever need to sell them (they're for my personal collection, so I have no immediate plans to do so).
Here's the scan of the 55T Williams:
So, any particular reason why GAI graded vintage card are selling so cheap?
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Comments
<< <i>Sure. With my experience I have seen trimmed and doctored cards way to often find a home in a GAI holder. >>
Ditto.
A large percentage are doctored or over graded
"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
<< <i>I thought GAI was reputable for wax though, right? >>
Maybe in their ears..
I have seen some GAI wax packs that I think may have been resealed.
Mike Baker was purportedly one of PSA's top graders - and a great guy BTW.
Rumors stated to fly when they were getting into financial woes - perhaps "deals" if ya know what I mean?
Very sad.
On the graded packs? Some feel the same about that - can't trust later flips?
mike
I guess they'll be going to PSA!
If you have confidence in those recent buys, you might
consider trying to cross them while the sales are still
fresh. You might still have recourse against the sellers,
if you don't wait too long.
I have no clue as to whether they are good/bad, BUT
PSA can tell you; likely even without cracking them.
In my own opinion, their product - grading and authentication - was for a time equivalent to or just slightly shy of that offered by PSA. I have had multiple national dealers tell me that in the beginning they did a solid job. But the problem is they suffered from several well publicized blowups in both the grading and authentication areas - multiple, inexcusable errors that cost them their reputation, and probably deservedly so. They will never recover from it.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>
<< <i>I thought GAI was reputable for wax though, right? >>
Maybe in their ears..
I have seen some GAI wax packs that I think may have been resealed. >>
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Could be as simple as asking the seller to honor his refund policy.
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Could be as simple as asking the seller to honor his refund policy.
Those sellers who accept a return of a third party graded card (and most don't) will not do so past a certain point and certainly not if the card is cracked out of its holder to submit to PSA. Aalso, as earlycal pointed out, many of us have submitted cards we've pulled out of packs that came back Evid Trim, and then resubmitted that same card where it got graded the next time around.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>You could write a book around the answer to this question. Some of it true in regards to the statements by my esteemed colleagues above, but there's more to it than that. Suffice it to say that when you run your business like a piece of crap it will eventually catch up with you and it did with GAI.
In my own opinion, their product - grading and authentication - was for a time equivalent to or just slightly shy of that offered by PSA. I have had multiple national dealers tell me that in the beginning they did a solid job. But the problem is they suffered from several well publicized blowups in both the grading and authentication areas - multiple, inexcusable errors that cost them their reputation, and probably deservedly so. They will never recover from it.
Ron >>
Ron
Their blunders ran the entire gamut - as you've stated.
One biggie? They had a habit of losing stuff in their own system. I have more than one friend have their pack submissions lost and never found. That's more than inexcusable.
mike
As you can see from the scan of the Williams, it's not trimmed. Off-center a bit T/B, but not in a way that detracts from the card's visual appeal. Just to be safe, when the card arrvied in the mail, I measured it against two other 1955 Topps cards and it measured out fine. I will do the same with the Aaron AS when it arrives in the mail. It was purchased from a reputable national dealer who is perfectly happy to give me a refund if I'm not happy with the card, so I'm not worried about it either.
Also keep in mind that these were purchased for my collection, not to be flipped. So I don't care too much about resale value since I hopefully will never have to sell them. And at the prices I paid, I almost certainly will be able to recoup my costs at the very least if I ever need to sell them, even if they are still in GAI holders.
As many people have said, buy the card, not the holder. There are plenty of untrimmed and accurately graded GAI cards out there, which is why I orginally started this thread. It seems as if people are devaluing all GAI graded cards (i.e. buying the holder, not the card), even though probably 80-90% of them are graded just as accurately as PSA, SGC, and BVG slabbed cards.
<< <i>Storm888,
As you can see from the scan of the Williams, it's not trimmed. Off-center a bit T/B, but not in a way that detracts from the card's visual appeal. Just to be safe, when the card arrvied in the mail, I measured it against two other 1955 Topps cards and it measured out fine. I will do the same with the Aaron AS when it arrives in the mail. It was purchased from a reputable national dealer who is perfectly happy to give me a refund if I'm not happy with the card, so I'm not worried about it either.
Also keep in mind that these were purchased for my collection, not to be flipped. So I don't care too much about resale value since I hopefully will never have to sell them. And at the prices I paid, I almost certainly will be able to recoup my costs at the very least if I ever need to sell them, even if they are still in GAI holders.
As many people have said, buy the card, not the holder. There are plenty of untrimmed and accurately graded GAI cards out there, which is why I orginally started this thread. It seems as if people are devaluing all GAI graded cards (i.e. buying the holder, not the card), even though probably 80-90% of them are graded just as accurately as PSA, SGC, and BVG slabbed cards. >>
Let me ask a simple question. Would you measure a graded '55 Topps card in a holder other than GAI if you were interested in that card?
The eviction?
Terrible PR?
No where to be found for a couple of days?
Dam ADD...
And then there's other alterations; soaking, rebuilt corners, and my personal favorite, spooning.
<< <i>If you don't care about resale value, then why not just buy GEM or PRO cards. For somebody that argues about a lot of stuff on these boards, you really don't have that much knowledge about what's going on in the hobby. >>
Oh snap!
My question is why? As far as I know, GAI has always been considered to be a reputable and accurate card grader.
While their December meltdown almost certainly lost them a lot of trust and customers, that alone shouldn't affect people's opinions of their grading accuracy.
The reason I ask is that tonight I was able to pick up a GAI 9 graded 1958 Hank Aaron AS from a reputable dealer on Ebay for $1025. SMR on this card is $2800, which means that I picked it up for about 37% of SMR. Additionally, a few months ago I picked up a GAI 8 graded 1955 Topps Ted Williams for $1100, which was only 44% of SMR ($2500).
Both of these cards are absolutely gorgeous and have great crossover potential should I ever need to sell them (they're for my personal collection, so I have no immediate plans to do so). >>>
I don't believe that Williams would cross over to a PSA 8 - I'd have to see the back also to be more sure. And if there's a doctored corner or some recoloring, it won't crossover at all to PSA anything.
Frankly, it's a terrible gamble, and I do mean terrible, at this point in time trying to crossover GAI cards to PSA by viewing scans from ebay, buying the cards, and trying to turn a profit - you might get lucky occasionally but overall it's a gamble that is Terrible...with a capital T.
So the premise of your post is basically flawed and incorrect.
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PSA and SGC catch about 85% of the trim jobs that go through them
BGS catches about 75%
GAI catches about 50%
GEM and PRO catch about 10% by accident
Put those ranges in place and the prices fit about where they should (not accounting for grading accuracy).
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<< <i>Let me ask a simple question. Would you measure a graded '55 Topps card in a holder other than GAI if you were interested in that card? >>
Depends.
<< <i>Did you forget what happened just a couple of months ago? >>
No. I mentioned it in my opening post as being a potential reason.
<< <i>As for your card, while you may have lined it up, doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Optical illusions can happen when comparing slabbed cards. >>
My eyesight isn't that bad
<< <i>If you don't care about resale value, then why not just buy GEM or PRO cards. >>
Because you KNOW those cards are trimmed or otherwise altered. I'm guessing that 80-90% of all GAI graded cards are perfectly fine.
<< <i>If you are happy with the card and price then that is all that counts. >>
I am. The card in on my mantle (pun not intended) with several other cards and is gorgeous to look at.
>>
But if it came from a 'national dealer' as you say then he's already sent it to PSA to cross or he knows it won't cross just by looking at it. Not too many of them leave money on the table and if the card would cross to a psa 7 then he left a chunk of change on the table and that is highly unlikely. >>
I think because many of you are obsessed with graded cards you overestimate the extent to which other people are. There are hundreds of reputable dealers out there who don't have the time, energy, or money to obsessively check every card and try to maximize their values.
<< <i>Frankly, it's a terrible gamble, and I do mean terrible, at this point in time trying to crossover GAI cards to PSA by viewing scans from ebay, buying the cards, and trying to turn a profit - you might get lucky occasionally but overall it's a gamble that is Terrible...with a capital T. >>
As I noted, I'm not trying to cross the cards over. They are for me to look at and enjoy for the next 20-30 years. And it's not a terrible financial gamble at all. I could probably put both cards back up on Ebay and recoup the money I spent anytime I want to. After all both cardshas someone else who bid only $25 less than I did. And given that I paid 44% of SMR for the 55 Williams and 37% of SMR for the 58 Aaron AS, I might even be able to squeeze out a small profit by marketing them a little better.
And 10-20 years from now, who knows....maybe PSA's reputation will be just as poor as GAI's is right now and there will be no price distinction between the different major grading companies.
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None of the reputable dealers willing to leave money on the table live on my planet.
Although I am a big Aaron fan, I'd rather not hold onto this card in the long-term since I at least like to feel confident that the cards I own are not doctored. Having said that, if the originator of this thread, or anyone else for that matter, has sufficient faith in GAI and is interested in purchasing this card for roughly the price I paid, at this point in time I would be willing to do so. Please keep in mind that I do not have a loupe; therefore; I have not been able to examine this card as closely as many of you would be able to and I've found that examining holdered cards with the naked eye is very difficult, particularly given the problem of glare under bright lighting.
<< <i>I've been observing that GAI graded vintage cards are only going for about 40%-60% of similar PSA graded cards.
My question is why? As far as I know, GAI has always been considered to be a reputable and accurate card grader.
While their December meltdown almost certainly lost them a lot of trust and customers, that alone shouldn't affect people's opinions of their grading accuracy.
The reason I ask is that tonight I was able to pick up a GAI 9 graded 1958 Hank Aaron AS from a reputable dealer on Ebay for $1025. SMR on this card is $2800, which means that I picked it up for about 37% of SMR. Additionally, a few months ago I picked up a GAI 8 graded 1955 Topps Ted Williams for $1100, which was only 44% of SMR ($2500).
Both of these cards are absolutely gorgeous and have great crossover potential should I ever need to sell them (they're for my personal collection, so I have no immediate plans to do so).
Here's the scan of the 55T Williams:
So, any particular reason why GAI graded vintage card are selling so cheap? >>
GAI allows pre-grade at shows. For those who don't know what that is, it means that you sit at the table with Mike and a couple of other guys and they "pre-grade" your card in front of you. They put it in a sleeve and write what the card will grade when slabbed. You cannot leave the table with the card, you have to submit it right there and then and they take it back and slab it. While some novice with their card switching theories would think that this is cool, I think anyone with a brain can see why this is not a good idea (sitting at the table with the guys looking at your card) especially given the financial "bust" so to speak, of late. Great intentions translate into great endeavours, which in turn become great ventures if you catch my drift.
this is nothing like Beckett's raw card review. this on the other hand is a pre-grade in the same fashion as the regular slabbing. You don't talk to the graders, you don't even see them. Granted, you don't know the sub-grades on the spot, but it is a cost efficient way for them to grade on-site at shows without having to lug the slabbing machine along, and the sleeves are sealed and you can't peel the label off without ruining it. it's double-stick peeling/layered foil. Someone tried cutting them open and switching the cards inside with altered ones but beckett caught all of them as soon as they were submitted.
Stick with the older GAI slabs. these cards cross at a good rate. if your sole intention is to cross over, don't buy the new gai slabs, they are in there for the sole reason that neither PSA, BGS/BVG, SGC would grade them. There's my helpful hint if you want to make some coin.
GAI took a different stance on factory wrinkles than PSA did and a ton of cards, especially 55 Bowmans were graded by them with wrinkles that would cross over in the 5 to 6 range (unless you spoon them out before submitting which is unethical as most come back later).
If you get the cards in hand and feel the are acurately graded then no worries, if you plan on flipping then worry on.
Rescan it when its cracked out.
"I would look at it like this:
PSA and SGC catch about 85% of the trim jobs that go through them
BGS catches about 75%
GAI catches about 50%
GEM and PRO catch about 10% by accident"
Comment 1: The above statement might be true, provided that the invoices of certain submitters are excluded.
Comment 2: I generally agree with Morgoth, that's it's a function of what you pay for the card. If you get a GAI graded card at a price that is 2 grades below the actual grade, sometimes that's a gamble worth taking, sometimes not.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
These are just my stories. I've heard many more and have personally seen so many overgraded cards in there holders its sickening
Mark
"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
Link
Oh and edited to add, glad to know you think "r.c.means" is a reputable dealer.
That said, there are cards in their holders that are legitimate and accurately graded. But you can't pay anywhere near SMR for them.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Bosox1976
<< <i>For someone who constantly bashes the grading industry, you sure have spent a lot of cash on slabbed cards. >>
Not nearly as much I've spent on raw. I've actually only bought a total of four graded cards for my collection over the last year:
1955T Williams GAI 8
1958T Aaron AS GAI 9
1955T Mays PSA 6
1960-61 Bobby Hull BVG 7.5
For post 1956 cards I generally buy raw since they are usually for my displays (just finished a nice 1958 one featuring Mantle, Mays, Williams, and Aaron which I will post a photo of once all the cards arrive), but for 1954-1956 cards I have no problem buying graded if I have to, since cards from those years are too big for the Ultra-Pro holders I use for my multi-card displays and can only be displayed individually.
<< <i>glad to know you think "r.c.means" is a reputable dealer. >>
And what precisely is that supposed to mean? Are you implying that he isn't just because he's local dealer and you don't know who he is? In case you didn't notice, he's been on Ebay for almost 9 years, has 99.9% positive feedback (3174 total), and just happens to be a local Piitsburgh dealer who I know from back when I went to Carnegie-Mellon University.
<< <i>Before cracking out any GAI cards, use jruler.com to accurately measure the card and calcuate it's aspect ratio (ratio of length to width). If the aspect ratio matches similar cards you know to be untrimmed, crack away. Only useful for figuring out if a card is trimmed (versus doctored), but with GAI crackouts it is a vital first step. >>
I've found many size variations with cards in PSA holders. If PSA's slabbing slightly undersized cards, then I assume that they are accounting for acceptable size variations and are looking more at the edges for signs of trimming than just the size alone.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>glad to know you think "r.c.means" is a reputable dealer. >>
And what precisely is that supposed to mean? Are you implying that he isn't just because he's local dealer and you don't know who he is? In case you didn't notice, he's been on Ebay for almost 9 years, has 99.9% positive feedback (3174 total), and just happens to be a local Piitsburgh dealer who I know from back when I went to Carnegie-Mellon University. >>
Why are you trying to put words in my mouth?
Never said nor even implied anything.
And you went to Carnegie-Mellon?
Wow.
Just wow.
<< <i>I would look at it like this:
PSA and SGC catch about 85% of the trim jobs that go through them
BGS catches about 75%
GAI catches about 50%
GEM and PRO catch about 10% by accident
Put those ranges in place and the prices fit about where they should (not accounting for grading accuracy). >>
And just for reference, Stevie Wonder consistently catches 53%.
That '58 Aaron may have been shilled.
Link
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>As for your card, while you may have lined it up, doesn't mean it's not trimmed. Optical illusions can happen when comparing slabbed cards.
And then there's other alterations; soaking, rebuilt corners, and my personal favorite, spooning.
I LOVE SPOONING! Especially when it leads to forking!
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The winning bider sniped and beat the guy who got shilled up. While that doesn't make the schill OK, it does eliminate it's effect on the auction.
A shilled auction always has an effect.
Steve