1953 Topps Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays Recolored
JackWESQ
Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
BBCExchange's reputation is impeccable. That said, I could see someone purchasing these cards, cracking them out and selling them as raw and unaltered and turn a profit. Your thoughts?
/s/ JackWESQ
Willie Mays
Mickey Mantle
/s/ JackWESQ
Willie Mays
Mickey Mantle
0
Comments
/s/ JackWESQ
take up that challenge. Altering or misrepresentation of collectables for higher profit exists in many fields.
is what the OP was trying to say. (I think)
by legit sale I mean if someone sold them raw with the disclaimer that they have been re colored.
Steve
<< <i>Steve that is under the assumption it is a legit sale. Cracked out they could easily fetch more and that
is what the OP was trying to say. (I think)
by legit sale I mean if someone sold them raw with the disclaimer that they have been re colored.
Steve >>
There is no conceivable, possible, fathomable way these cards would fetch more money raw than slabbed as they are right now...and it's not even remotely close....I don't care who is the seller. Without the PSA slab, a potential buyer not only has to be concerned with "recoloring", "doctoring", "trimming", etc...but the most important part is AUTHENTICITY.
Steve from BBCE exchange isn't stupid - If he could sell the cards for more raw, then he would do so...He knows the cards are worth considerably more in the slab.
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I agree that slabbed they are worth more. That goes w/o saying.
What i am trying to say is that someone (unethical) could possibly get more selling them raw.
A person just getting back into the hobby for instance, or a person that does not do graded at all could be duped.
How many times have we seen raw cards go for more then a slabbed counterpart?
And even if Steve Hart could get more selling them raw (he possibly could) does not mean that he would do such a thing.
His reputation is worth more then these 2 cards.
Are you know saying that some 'weasel' would shy away from buying these 2 cards, crack them out if he could sell them for more?
Steve
Really? How about this simple scenario, guy buys these cards, cracks them out and calls them EX, with so many potential ebay buyers to bid on them he could easily
flip them for a profit. Remember we are talking about scamsters, not honest people like Steve Hart. By the timne the buyer realizes he has been duped the seller is long gone.
You have got to be kidding me.
You of all people.
Steve
<< <i>There is no conceivable, possible, fathomable way these cards would fetch more money raw than slabbed as they are right now...and it's not even remotely close
Really? How about this simple scenario, guy buys these cards, cracks them out and calls them EX, with so many potential ebay buyers to bid on them he could easily
flip them for a profit. Remember we are talking about scamsters, not honest people like Steve Hart. By the timne the buyer realizes he has been duped the seller is long gone.
You have got to be kidding me.
You of all people.
Steve >>
Steve - You know I respect your opinions and knowledge on baseball cards, but we're not even close on this. Perhaps you're not adjusting your thinking to the present state of ebay, and not the ebay of years ago.
I've been following ebay now for approximately ten years. I remember back then that if a scammer put a raw 52 Mantle on ebay, if the scam was done a certain way, the scammer could profit enormously from it. I wish I would have copied and kept this scam auction, but I remember one day a newspaper had an article about finding bargains on ebay from people misspelling key words. Well as sure as God made green apples, I think it was around the next day a scammer listed a "Mickey Mantel" 1952 Topps baseball card with the usual BS storyline. I'm not kidding - I remember this card went for over $1,500. I e-mailed the buyer and explained to him the scam situation. He ignored my e-mail. Well I kept looking at the seller's feedback and lo & behold about 3 weeks later he gets a neg from the buyer claiming the card is a fake. THEN...the buyer e-mails me and asks what possible action he could take against the buyer.
Well it's no sense continuing with that story but suffice to say, when's the last time you've seen an obvious scam 52 Mantle go for $1,500? - and it's a legitimate buyer, not a shilled up price?. It really doesn't happen any more to that extent because ebay is a very mature market. And basically almost every active baseball card collector with some money in their pocket, knows about PSA, and is basically well informed about most ebay scams.
Yes, Steve Hart is an honest guy, that isn't debatable, but he is still going to try to maximize his profits, I don't care what you say or even what he would say about that. All businesspeople try to maximize their profits either honestly or dishonestly....Which leads back to the point of ebay being a mature market...Steve Hart has an impeccable ebay feedback I think with only one neg which he discussed on this forum, but ebay buyers have seen ebay sellers which much greater feedback numbers than his, go naru on a regular basis. I mean just because someone with great feedback has been honest in the past, doesn't mean they didn't just lose 25K to their local "connected" bookie during March Madness, and needs to come up with some quick money real fast without getting physically harmed, and so decides to put some fake raw key cards on ebay...even if that seller pretended to be honest and stated the cards were recolored, doesn't mean the cards would be genuine...ie: a SCAM! The PSA slab takes all the guesswork out of that - the buyer can be assured that the card is genuine and therefore will have the confidence to bid higher, much higher, on the card versus a raw card....and again...this isn't even a close call...it's a very easy call.
I didn't miss the point Steve...I expanded the point and clarified the big picture.
Ask yourself a question Steve....If that 53 Mantle from your mailman comes back from PSA slabbed authentic but recolored, are you going to bust the slab and sell it as raw but discolored, and genuine, on ebay. Of course you're not going to do that, unless you're foolish because I think you said the mailman is giving you about 33% of the profits? What's better Steve...33% of say $3,000 from a slabbed Mantle or 33% of $200 from a raw Mantle? You'd keep it slabbed because you know I'm right.
Steve
Just to clarify my response in case WinPitcher doesn't get it yet...Yes, someone could "try" doing this but there is no doubt about it, NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER, that they would lose money, a lot of money, even if the seller doesn't mention the recoloring.
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I was going to reply but can't stop laughing. Your reply has about 50 holes in it among the various tangents.
Steve
Are you saying a 1953 Mantle described as EX will go for 200.00?
Do you really think that?
Also don't you find it at all telling that out of 4 people that posted here only you
share your opinion?
Steve
WOWSER!! Let's have all three Steve's fight over this one! I dont think Steve Hart would jeopardize his rep by cracking these out and selling them raw, they are what they are.
That is a pretty blanket statement Stevek as well, I am a businessman, and I am honest. ANYONE could sell these as LEGIT 53's unholdered and make more, it's like they are reprints. They are legit, just recolored. I betcha BBCX bought these raw and now is takin the beating!
<< <i>Stevek
Are you saying a 1953 Mantle described as EX will go for 200.00?
Do you really think that?
Also don't you find it at all telling that out of 4 people that posted here only you
share your opinion?
Steve >>
<<< Are you saying a 1953 Mantle described as EX will go for 200.00? >>>
Steve, I'm not going to get into a food fight with you. Yes, admittedly I like throwing a few pies (LOL) but I don't have the time or desire for a protracted "much ado about nothing" argument regarding an obvious point. Come back during football season and I'll be happy to beat your brains in on a football thread - That's a "much ado about nothing" argument that I enjoy. LOL
And the correct answer to your question is "Yes" that the typical scammer auction on ebay will sell a raw 53 Mantle for less than $200...and it was just a random price example. Could a Steve Hart get more than this for a raw 53 Mantle?...well of course.
Case closed on this as far as I am concerned...You believe whatever you want.
Steve
No way Steve Hart took a beating on these cards. Steve Hart is way too smart to pay a lot of money for these cards raw...from anybody! I'd say the odds are he bought 'em cheap, and was well pleased these cards came back slabbed as authentic.
Sigh.
The world does not revolve around ebay. The cards can be sold elsewhere too!
You are right, this is much ado about nothing.
You keep quoting me yet 5 other people have said basically the same thing.
Im done.
Steve
Cards being "sold as a reprint" still get suckers spending $500 plus on those auctions, and those are stated reprints. These are much more slick and not so obvious.
Trimmed cards get sold all the time for prices in line with high grade slabbed cards...not to mention slabbed PSA 9's that are trimmed and floating all over the place.
These cards could EASILY get sold by a moderate level seller who will guarantee authenticity, and guarantee that they are not trimmed.
They look very nice, and if the color can only be detected with certain methods(other than eyeballs), then I see no problem fooling MANY collectors who would never even know...and who don't give a rat's @S@ about grading.
Besides, the seller could just give the ole guarantee of "must be returned within 48 hours," that eliminates the grading opinion
Another person that gets it!
Steve
I do fully agree with you that Steve Hart did not take a beating, as a matter of fact I doubt
if he has even 1 cent into those cards. My money is on the fact he is selling them on consignment.
I am a Silver Powerseller on ebay, getting close to Gold level, not quite averaging 10K a month yet, so perhaps that would classify me as a "moderate level seller" - Frankly I would never do what was discussed here, but even if I did, I don't believe that I could get more money cracking and selling this Mantle card under a dishonest description, than I could selling it in that PSA slab, and again...I really don't think the dollar amount difference would be close.
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I wonder why it was not in a PSA slab? Probably because the best it would get is an authentic grade.
and THIS seller feels he can get more selling it RAW with the "great card speel"
Now look at completed listings for Authentic thru Psa 2 and you will see prices ranging from 200.00 to 400.00
A little data never hurts.
Steve Harts is currently at 234.00 and has a few days to go.
I will be surprised it if breaks 660.00!
Now a trimmed card might be harder to get past some not so savy ebay buyers
then a recolored one but then again for all I know the Great lakes example was neither trimmed or recolored.
Just Raw.
Steve
<< <i>Here is a raw one that just sold for 660.00 by a (what I consider) a moderate seller. (Great lakes)
I wonder why it was not in a PSA slab? Probably because the best it would get is an authentic grade.
and THIS seller feels he can get more selling it RAW with the "great card speel"
Now look at completed listings for Authentic thru Psa 2 and you will see prices ranging from 200.00 to 400.00
A little data never hurts.
Steve Harts is currently at 234.00 and has a few days to go.
I will be surprised it if breaks 660.00!
Now a trimmed card might be harder to get past some not so savy ebay buyers
then a recolored one but then again for all I know the Great lakes example was neither trimmed or recolored.
Just Raw.
Steve >>
http://cgi.ebay.com/1953-TOPPS-baseball-card-MICKEY-MANTLE-82-AWESOME_W0QQitemZ190204000429QQihZ009QQcategoryZ60481QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
That is a good example. We'll see how the Steve Hart auction goes. If I'm wrong which will be the first time ever I was wrong about anything
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So why didn't Mr Great Lakes get this "AWESOME" card graded by PSA?
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So why didn't Mr Great Lakes get this "AWESOME" card graded by PSA?
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Bosox1976
<< <i>I'd be willing to bet it was graded by PSA - check out the old thread; they actually base their business model on cracking and selling raw to capitalize on greed of graders. Works for them. >>
Exactly, an over graded/trimmed/recolored raw will sell for more than a low grade slabbed card
<< <i>I'd be willing to bet it was graded by PSA - check out the old thread; they actually base their business model on cracking and selling raw to capitalize on greed of graders. Works for them. >>
Very interesting - I even posted in that thread. I still want to see what this Steve Hart slabbed Mantle card sells for.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd be willing to bet it was graded by PSA - check out the old thread; they actually base their business model on cracking and selling raw to capitalize on greed of graders. Works for them. >>
Exactly, an over graded/trimmed/recolored raw will sell for more than a low grade slabbed card >>
Yuppers.
Will never, ever purchase raw product from GL.
<< <i>One thing I know for sure, is that is you take two balls, one ball weighing one pound, and the other ball weighing five pounds, and drop them at the exact same time off a ten story building, the five pound ball will land first because it is heavier, and don't try to tell me otherwise. >>
In a vaccuum yes, but air resistance could slow the (i assume) bigger ball down in a real world situation.
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
<< <i>
<< <i>One thing I know for sure, is that is you take two balls, one ball weighing one pound, and the other ball weighing five pounds, and drop them at the exact same time off a ten story building, the five pound ball will land first because it is heavier, and don't try to tell me otherwise. >>
In a vaccuum yes, but air resistance could slow the (i assume) bigger ball down in a real world situation. >>
Maybe Axtell and Stalin will jump off a ten story building to see which one lands first.
lol I am trying my best Steve............
Steve
Steve
edited to add:
<< <i>Well the card is now up to 4 and change, anymore and my friend SteveK will be right...again
Steve
edited to add:
Steve, after pointing out this Great Lakes auction, in my view you've already "won" this "debate" - Put together a Powerseller with a "seemingly" good reputation, a naive card collector with some spare money, a "flowery" description in the auction, and the result in my view can be someone purchasing an overpriced baseball card. I of course always knew this situation existed but didn't focus in on the degree, which is much greater than I thought.
To me, a trimmed card is basically a worthless baseball card, yes even a 52 Mantle. And to me a doctored corner or recolored card is unacceptable but I realize others may differ in their perception of the value depending on the card. I wouldn't want this Steve Hart recolored card in my collection but at least Steve Hart portrays it honestly and deserves credit where credit is due.
There's no way I could present an auction like this Great Lakes guy - which sickens me. Not that I am against making money and I'll make every last dollar I can out of an auction, but it will be by presenting front and back clear scans, forthrightly describing any flaws as well as the attributes of a card, and in sum just doing it the right way. To me...that's the best policy in the long-run and I can sleep at night without worrying about waking up with an ebay neg the next day...plus it builds repeat customers and while I may make less money per auction through an accurate description, I believe in the long term I'll have a greater number of loyal customers, and I'd rather make say $20 from five good customers equaling $100 who keep coming back for more product, than rip somebody off for $50 and that buyer never comes back - To me honesty is actually good business and smart business, and of course anyway it's the right way to do business.
Look at that jackass con artist Gary as an example. He conned the group out of let's say $1,000. With a good reputation he could have made much more, MUCH more money than that in the long-run doing things honestly, driving good customers from CU to his website who would buy from him. I mean nobody here would ever buy from that guy - ever! Ripping off the group for $1,000 cost him much more than that in the long-run - that's just bad business.
Admittedlly, ebay seems to attract a seemingly unending number of suckers, more of them and with more money than I realized because I "thought" that basically almost everybody these days knew the "reputation" of ebay and to beware. But for me, I'd still without a doubt and with no hesitation, have the business model of a Steve Hart, than of this Great Lakes guy.
Yes, I still want to see what the Steve Hart auction sells for, but my feeling now is that despite what that card sells for, that definitely more education needs to be done out there regarding baseball card scammers. Thankfully with this great forum we can often point out these scammers to the overall benefit of this great hobby, which benefits us as well.
Steve
All along I was just trying to give another view.
I'm surprised the Steve Hart one is at 4 and change, his reputation added 100.00?
You are correct that no one in their right mind would sell such a card raw though.
Only a scammer or suedo <sp> scammer would.
I like you want no problem cards in my collection.
Don't get me wrong I'd take these cards for real cheap but would never pay any real money for them
I think our debate was a draw and you are still undefeated!
Steve
What bothers me is when a decent collector gets caught up in this crap.
Many suckers are scammers in reverse. They try and get a steal and get robbed.
I feel sorry for them.
Steve
<< <i>The problem as i see it is ebay has as many suckers as they do scammers.
What bothers me is when a decent collector gets caught up in this crap.
Many suckers are scammers in reverse. They try and get a steal and get robbed.
I feel sorry for them.
Steve >>
That is an excellent point. I believe it was WC Fields who stated, "You can't cheat an honest man" - well that isn't entirely true, but it certainly does have a lot of truth to it, which of course the scammers use to their advantage...sometimes pretending to be vulnerable, naive women sellers in which the "suckers are scammers in reverse" thinking they're taking advantage of some ignorant lady whereby they themselves windup getting conned.
And I feel the exact same way - seeing a decent collector getting scammed sickens me...bad for everyone and the hobby. Thankfully through this great forum we can expose a number of these scamming bastiges.
-
I would have thought these cards would go for around 200.00
Steve
<< <i>The Mays is also up over the 400.00 mark.
I would have thought these cards would go for around 200.00
Steve >>
It would be most interesting to see these cards in hand, and see just what "recolored" means. I mean it could be just a slight retouching of a corner or it could mean some kid took a magic marker and went to town on the solid color areas of the cards - very hard if not impossible to tell the degree of this from a scan which of course tends to "fill things in" - these cards may look a lot worse in hand with possibly an ugly mottled effect in the solid areas, or whatever are the areas of the recoloring.
And why wouldn't Steve Hart describe the "recoloring" on the card? Wouldn't that be the "right" thing to do? I might have to give Steve Hart a "W" just on this auction because of that. And unless I missed it, I didn't see any money back guarantee stated. Likely Steve would refund the money to a dissatisfied customer, but not stating this in the auction, in which of course a good "refund policy" has to be a positive thing for a final sales price, not stating a refund policy is usually a seller's way of hoping the buyer will presume that there is no money back guarantee because it wasn't stated, and therefore even if the buyer doesn't like the card, the buyer will keep it. Yes, this auction gets a "W" from me.
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I think the Mantle is recolored at the bottom left corner. I can see it there.
As for the mays I can't see it.
Steve Hart is prolly one of only a few guys that could get 4 bills for these cards.
Another IMO would be cardmercahnt6ta4, guys like that anyway.
Any regular run of the mill (honest seller) would be lucky to get 200
IMO
So Steve we were both right, your streak survives!
Edited to add: He states 'recolored' in the title, shows a pic of the slab etc.
Yes he did not go the next route and actually describe the recoloring and I don't blame him for not.
The extent of the recoloring is not really an issue IMO as his scans are top of the grade.
Again JMO
Steve
<< <i>Steve has a no questions asked money back guarantee.
I think the Mantle is recolored at the bottom left corner. I can see it there.
As for the mays I can't see it.
Steve Hart is prolly one of only a few guys that could get 4 bills for these cards.
Another IMO would be cardmercahnt6ta4, guys like that anyway.
Any regular run of the mill (honest seller) would be lucky to get 200
IMO
So Steve we were both right, your streak survives!
Edited to add: He states 'recolored' in the title, shows a pic of the slab etc.
Yes he did not go the next route and actually describe the recoloring and I don't blame him for not.
The extent of the recoloring is not really an issue IMO as his scans are top of the grade.
Again JMO
Steve >>
I don't like coming down on Steve Hart who of course we know is a good guy, but it is puzzling why he wouldn't mention "no questions asked money back guarantee" in the auction - I mean that would normally have to bring a higher price on an auction if someone knew for sure that they could spend their money on the card and return it if not satisfied. Oh well.
And yes I agree that Steve with his 100% feedback rating, large feedback number, fantastic reputation with certainly a loyal customer following...should receive about the maximum price for this card.
For sure no "babes in the woods" bidding here - they must know something. Perhaps hoping to profit on that "crack and sell as raw" routine which you pointed out.
Bidder Bid Amount Bid Time
a***i( 3594) US $426.01 Mar-21-08 05:37:03 PDT
h***2( 2351) US $421.01 Mar-21-08 10:18:57 PDT
h***2( 2351) US $351.01 Mar-20-08 04:22:50 PDT
a***i( 3594) US $350.00 Mar-21-08 05:36:51 PDT
8***a( 269) US $232.00 Mar-20-08 12:54:04 PDT
8***a( 269) US $204.00 Mar-20-08 12:53:31 PDT
u***u( 7 ) US $155.00 Mar-18-08 09:45:43 PDT
d***d( 13256) US $149.00 Mar-19-08 09:49:25 PDT
d***d( 13256) US $126.00 Mar-17-08 18:43:12 PDT
t***3( 239) US $116.00 Mar-18-08 08:30:09 PDT
g***t( 548) US $111.00 Mar-18-08 08:17:02 PDT
r***o( 1514) US $100.00 Mar-17-08 12:51:30 PDT
8***a( 269) US $99.00 Mar-17-08 13:53:39 PDT
n***2( 601) US $89.00 Mar-17-08 13:19:52 PDT
h***a( 300) US $75.01 Mar-17-08 10:19:03 PDT
a***p( 471) US $57.00 Mar-17-08 11:06:24 PDT
p***s( 619) US $55.00 Mar-17-08 09:44:14 PDT
e***o( 308) US $15.00 Mar-17-08 09:48:14 PDT
a***a( 822) US $5.00 Mar-17-08 06:45:25 PDT
0***t( 430) US $5.00 Mar-17-08 08:41:25 PDT
t***a( 394) US $3.99 Mar-17-08 05:40:26 PDT
7***t( 330) US $2.00 Mar-16-08 20:32:50 PDT
s***j( 104) US $2.00 Mar-16-08 23:36:12 PDT
Starting Price US $0.99 Mar-16-08 20:22:00 PDT
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I checked a few of his other auctions and they too do not have a refund policy. He used too state it.
I had to return a card once and had no problem.
But at that time he listed that he had one.
Steve
been a 5 maybe even a 6 had the ninkumpoop left it alone.
Steve
Based on the selling prices, I think there is a distinct possibility. Of course this is unscientific, but this raw 1953 Topps Mickey Mantle went for $760.00 here:
Raw 1953 Topps Mickey Mantle (Pictured below)
Is the raw card comparable to the PSA Authentic card? Arguably. But who knows. And this Mick went for $660.00 here:
Raw 1953 Topps Mickey Mantle (Pictured below)
And what of the Mays? This Mays went for $687.77 here (though it looks in better condition than the PSA Authentic card):
Raw 1953 Topps Willie Mays (Pictured below)
My conclusion? I think those cards could be craked out and sold for a profit. Of course, the seller might be hearing from the buyer if the buyer ultimately submitted the raw/cracked out cards and came back not graded.
/s/ JackWESQ
<< <i>Okay, now we have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. The Mick sold for $481.00 and the Mays sold for $456.00. Now, we're NOT talking about whether bbcexchange made SOME profit, PURE profit or NO profit off these cards. That's irrelevant. The original inquiry was whether someone could buy these cards, crack them out, sell them on ebay as raw and unaltered AND make a profit.
Based on the selling prices, I think there is a distinct possibility. Of course this is unscientific, but this raw 1953 Topps Mickey Mantle went for $760.00 here:
Raw 1953 Topps Mickey Mantle (Pictured below)
Is the raw card comparable to the PSA Authentic card? Arguably. But who knows. And this Mick went for $660.00 here:
Raw 1953 Topps Mickey Mantle (Pictured below)
And what of the Mays? This Mays went for $687.77 here (though it looks in better condition than the PSA Authentic card):
Raw 1953 Topps Willie Mays (Pictured below)
My conclusion? I think those cards could be craked out and sold for a profit. Of course, the seller might be hearing from the buyer if the buyer ultimately submitted the raw/cracked out cards and came back not graded.
/s/ JackWESQ
Our comments weren't irrelevant if you absorbed the expanded meaning of the thread. To know for sure if you could profit from crack and sell raw, you'd really have to see the card in hand. If you receive that card and it is "obviously" recolored, and you sell it raw without mentioning say the crayon on the card, then you're likely gonna get a neg and someone wanting his money back. So while your initial premise is interesting and relevant, so was the rest of the discussion as well pertaining to these two specific cards.
It's not a cut and dry proposition - someone could pay $481 for that Mantle and get stuck with a card that really can't be sold raw unless the buyer is blind. And anyone with a reputation less than Steve Hart would most likely be selling it as a loss in the slab. Could a Great Lakes get $481 for this card, as is, slabbed? Maybe, maybe not. Of course someone would have to be a dishonest seller, a scammer, to crack this card and sell it raw without mentioning the recoloring.
A good risk-reward ratio here for a scammer? WinPitcher's points have changed my answer to this question to "Perhaps", rather than "No" - Be interesting to follow the trail of this card if it shows up raw on ebay.
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I did follow this thread, thoroughly and point taken. Certainly I'm no expert on ebay or here on the boards. But after almost 9 years on ebay and 6 years on the boards, I've learned that where there is profit to be made, legitimately or otherwise, someone will find it. Regularly, I hear about the crack and resubmit "game." But I also hear about the crack and not resubmit "game," though that is more infrequent. That may be due to the not resubmit game requiring a greater understanding of the hobby, rather than simply relying on PSA's allegedly inconsistent grading standards. That said, I agree with you as it would be interesting to see where these cards end up. Perhaps we could end some of the speculation regarding these cards and simply email Steve at BBCExchange and inquire into the history of these cards.
/s/ JackWESQ
With that said, in general, it could be done.
Steve
<< <i>I'm shocked that carboard dealers re-color cards -- I only thought crap like that happened in the coin world!!
That "copper dip" stuff works purty good. Makes pennies look like new again.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm shocked that carboard dealers re-color cards -- I only thought crap like that happened in the coin world!!
That "copper dip" stuff works purty good. Makes pennies look like new again.
So, can I get rich being a "cardboard doctor?"
Steve