Set Composite Weight Review/Update??

Jake4Pack

I am currently putting together a 1957 Topps football master set in PSA 6+. While working on this set I have found that certain commons are much tougher to find than others in high grade and the Population Report supports this. For example...series 2 commons in the 57 set carry a weight of 1.30 (compared to 1.00 in series 1) however take #140 Zeke Bratkowski, a common card that carries the min. 1.30 weight. The population report shows this to be a very tough card to obtain in a PSA 7+(24 7's and only 9 PSA 8's with no 9's or 10's). If one of these pops up on ebay PSA 7's always demand well over $100.00...and there are a couple other common cards that are underrated in this set as well that just carry the min. weight. Should PSA review the set compositions and update card weights based on the population report...even if they are common cards? What other tough commons have some of you come across while building your sets that you would like to see given more respect? -Jake

Fuzz

Jake,
I believe that the policy from PSA is to NOT review these kind of issues. The cards are not scarce overall only conditionally scarce probably due to where it was on the sheet twhen it was printed. Each set has a number of killer commons but none of them reflect there conditional scarcity. The argument for this is that pop reports are a highly variable and change constantly. The opening of this door could lead to each card having a different weight as the easy commons would be less than the medium commons and so on. These weights would have to be addressed frequently. They seem to bunch them in the same manner they do for raw cards by series and DP and the like. If you want this to change, it could be a long battle. Please be advised.

brewtown

PSA doesnt really look into the diffcultly of the cards. Just look at SMR most are not correct

VitoCo1972

I was going to start a thread similar to this (actually also because of 57 football!). Why wouldn't PSA update their weighting annually based on scarcity? Isn't that exactly why weighting exists in the first place?

saucywombat

Weighting is entirely collector driven. The PSA folks don't review or suggest weights - as far as I know.

They always accept weighting for sets that are already registered and have no weight and of course you are free to submit weights when you register a new set. They like it in Excel format.

I'm sure they'll listen if you want to suggest changes. Not sure what the protocol would be in a set that had a lot of folks registered, but I imagine there's a pretty good chance you'll get what you want.

jradke4

no they do not just accept the weights that they have been given. i have had many weights changed on cards I have submitted for the Favre Master set. In one case they gave a base exquiste card a higher weight than an auto'd numbered to 5 exquiste card. after some emails and a link to how much i paid for the auto'd card that weight was changed. you might be able to get that card changed if you have enough ebay evidence to do so...or vcp data. i have always been told is that the weight is based soley on price. in fact at one point they sent me the weight scale based on price for the favre master set.

JasP24

In general, weights are based on value in PSA 8. If a card is truly more scarce, then typically it is going to carry a higher value and thus a higher weight. Unfortunately PSA is more interested in what the SMR says cards are valued (which is in most cases incorrect) rather than true market value which can be found on VCP.

So the answer is, work on getting the SMR prices corrected by sending them current market data, and then maybe you can get the weights changed based on that.

I recently went through the same issue with updating the NFL HOF RC weights. I attempted to use average VCP prices rather than SMR and was denied.

Jason

VitoCo1972

<< <i>In general, weights are based on value in PSA 8. If a card is truly more scarce, then typically it is going to carry a higher value and thus a higher weight. Unfortunately PSA is more interested in what the SMR says cards are valued (which is in most cases incorrect) rather than true market value which can be found on VCP.

So the answer is, work on getting the SMR prices corrected by sending them current market data, and then maybe you can get the weights changed based on that.

I recently went through the same issue with updating the NFL HOF RC weights. I attempted to use average VCP prices rather than SMR and was denied.

Jason >>



Here's an example. In the 1957 Topps football set, the Tommy McDonald is weighted 2.5 - same as Chuck Bednarik and less then Lou Groza. Now, a PSA 8 Groza will typically sell for $100 or so, and I just bought a Bednarik 8 at $85, but a PSA 8 McDonald will always bring over $130. I just don't understand how the current weights make sense.

What I do understand is that most of the whales fighting for the #1 spots on the vintage registries could be flip-flopped if weights are changed. I think that is primarily why PSA wouldn't want to change weights on vintage sets. It could really upset some people.

JasP24

<< <i>

Here's an example. In the 1957 Topps football set, the Tommy McDonald is weighted 2.5 - same as Chuck Bednarik and less then Lou Groza. Now, a PSA 8 Groza will typically sell for $100 or so, and I just bought a Bednarik 8 at $85, but a PSA 8 McDonald will always bring over $130. I just don't understand how the current weights make sense.

What I do understand is that most of the whales fighting for the #1 spots on the vintage registries could be flip-flopped if weights are changed. I think that is primarily why PSA wouldn't want to change weights on vintage sets. It could really upset some people. >>



What are the SMR prices for these cards? Forget about actual/realized. You'll have to get the SMR corrected on them first, then attempt to have the grade weights change based on SMR..PSA will only go by the SMR as a guide to proper weighting. Market prices are meaningless if the SMR doesn't reflect them. Package up the average PSA 8 selling prices for every 1957 Topps card in VCP. Send that spreadsheet to PSA. Within the next 2-3 months, you'll likely see the 57 Topps prices adjust accordingly.

I honestly don't think they care about who the set leaders or winners are. PSA can only work with the info they have. For every card you want to see the grade weight raised, another collector wants to see one lowered. Theycan;t please everyone. So send your market data to them for SMR updating and if/when the SMR is changed, you can request weights based on those changes. It's that simple.

Jason

Jason

jradke4

<< <i>

<< <i>

Here's an example. In the 1957 Topps football set, the Tommy McDonald is weighted 2.5 - same as Chuck Bednarik and less then Lou Groza. Now, a PSA 8 Groza will typically sell for $100 or so, and I just bought a Bednarik 8 at $85, but a PSA 8 McDonald will always bring over $130. I just don't understand how the current weights make sense.

What I do understand is that most of the whales fighting for the #1 spots on the vintage registries could be flip-flopped if weights are changed. I think that is primarily why PSA wouldn't want to change weights on vintage sets. It could really upset some people. >>



What are the SMR prices for these cards? Forget about actual/realized. You'll have to get the SMR corrected on them first, then attempt to have the grade weights change based on SMR..PSA will only go by the SMR as a guide to proper weighting. Market prices are meaningless if the SMR doesn't reflect them. Package up the average PSA 8 selling prices for every 1957 Topps card in VCP. Send that spreadsheet to PSA. Within the next 2-3 months, you'll likely see the 57 Topps prices adjust accordingly.

I honestly don't think they care about who the set leaders or winners are. PSA can only work with the info they have. For every card you want to see the grade weight raised, another collector wants to see one lowered. Theycan;t please everyone. So send your market data to them for SMR updating and if/when the SMR is changed, you can request weights based on those changes. It's that simple.

Jason

Jason >>



All of this sounds like a good reason to stick to player sets and other sets not listed by SMR. With those you can actually use real world data!!

saucywombat

Well I collect modern so maybe that's the difference. But my proposed weights have never been adjusted or denied.

Bottom line - they seem receptive to receiving feedback on weight/ or proposed weighting.

Edit: Never have requested a change in weight.

VitoCo1972

Jasp, are you sure they weight on 8's? I'm willing to do the legwork but want to make sure I do it correctly before I do.

JasP24

<< <i>Jasp, are you sure they weight on 8's? I'm willing to do the legwork but want to make sure I do it correctly before I do. >>



This is from the PSA rulebook:

Set rankings are determined by the grades of the items in the set, the "weight" assigned to each item in the set, and the set's completeness. Each item within the set is assigned a item rating based on the value of the item in NM-MT condition.

Jason

JasP24

<< <i>
All of this sounds like a good reason to stick to player sets and other sets not listed by SMR. With those you can actually use real world data!! >>



Not entirely true..In those cases they are using some sort of Beckett Price Guide to figure the weightings based on raw card values. I can't remember which one BJ quoted me, but I was surprised when I was told that is what they are using for player sets/low dollar non SMR type cards..

In all honesty, the grade weightings are of very little importance. All the collectors of each set are bound by the same rules, same weights. Anyone buying cards strictly for a higher set registry GPA needs to re-evalute why they are collecting in the first place. Collect what you enjoy, to the highest level you are comfortable with...The Registry is a nice side salad but collecting what you are interested in owning is the main course.

Jason

EDITED TO ADD: I found the old e-mail from BJ. This is what they are using for non-SMR rookie cards anyway:

"I'm using the 2006 "Ultimate Rookie Card Encyclopedia" published by Beckett as my guide."..

This was obviously a year or so ago (2006)..lol

MeteoriteGuy

I would like to get the Steve Young registry "fixed" so to say. It has several problems I think. It uses the wrong 1996 Score (I think) card (a subset card in the basic registry rather then the normal card).

I have added 30-40 cards to the registry but the last one they deemed super rare and have it optional. It is a gold Collectors Choice card, which is like an artist proof from other brands. I don't think (most) artist proofs are considered as super rare by collectors. At the same time, they have a 1 of 1, and another limited to 15 or 20, that is part of the master registry and not optional. These are 1000 times plus rarer then the Collectors Choice card.....I mean C'mon, it's Collectors Choice.

So I would like to see some things changed in it. But to be honest, changing the weights and cards in some cases, would not affect the registry any (as I lapped the #2 guy a couple times). I just think it is screwy and that it will likely keep me from ever being an award or free grades.

Clear Skies,
Mark

jradke4

your card might be optional if it was added to the set 90 days before the deadline for awards and there are less than 3 of the card already graded. after the deadline it will move to required status.

if there is a 1 of 1 in the set it should be removed. psa states in the rules that ultra rare cards are not allowed. email the set registry about the card.

MeteoriteGuy

<< <i>your card might be optional if it was added to the set 90 days before the deadline for awards and there are less than 3 of the card already graded. after the deadline it will move to required status.

if there is a 1 of 1 in the set it should be removed. psa states in the rules that ultra rare cards are not allowed. email the set registry about the card. >>




Thanks on the first note. That is fair I think.

"if there..." If? Give a guy a cracker.

Listed in the Young Master set is...

"1999 TOPPS GOLD LABEL STEVE YOUNG CLASS 1-BLCK LABEL 1 OF 1"

If I remember right it has a weight of 8 or something like that so it was not a casual slip through. I can't look at weights right now due to v2.

Here is the 1996 Score card listed in the Steve Young basic set. It is a pop 1 (meaning only one person saw this card submission worthy).



I have noticed a couple other things but I can't recall off the top of my head....and I don't really like rant messages.

In the end, and more to any PSA registry person/power that be reading this, I would prefer a set with somewhat messed up weights...then no weights.

Clear Skies,
Mark

VitoCo1972

Like I said, I'm happy to be the re-weighting test case and put together evidence for PSA - using 57 Football, but I don't have VCP. If someone can pull a VCP report in PSA 8 for me, I would put together a proposal using current and proposed weights and see what they do. If it works, I'll post results and let you guys know exactly what I did.

Jake4Pack

A 1957 Topps PSA 8 Tom Mcdonald sold on Ebay last night for $320.00

JasP24

From VCP..PSA 8 1957 Topps Sales..

Football Card Set: 1957 Topps

PSA 8 Auction Prices
Back to Set Profile
Card# Date Auction Player Name Price Extra
1 3/23/08 eBay Eddie Lebaron $102.50
2 10/2/07 eBay Pete Retzlaff $59.00
3 3/7/08 eBay Mike McCormack $39.99
4 1/9/08 eBay Lou Baldacci $25.05
5 5/2/08 eBay Gino Marchetti $46.76
6 2/19/08 eBay Leo Nomellini $26.00
7 5/12/08 eBay Bobby Watkins $56.00
8 2/27/08 eBay Dave Middleton $17.50
9 4/26/08 eBay Bobby Dillon $62.05
10 5/8/08 eBay Ler Richter $27.62
11 3/30/08 eBay Roosevelt Brown $54.99
12 5/8/08 eBay Lavern Torgeson $15.50
13 5/8/08 eBay Dick Bielski $22.27
14 12/13/07 eBay Pat Summerall $29.00
15 3/7/08 eBay Jack Butler $83.22
16 9/26/07 eBay John Henry Johnson $14.99
17 4/26/08 eBay Art Spinney $87.06
18 3/25/08 eBay Bob St.Cair $19.56
19 2/27/08 eBay Perry Jeter $28.27
20 1/20/08 eBay Lou Creekmur $34.78
21 3/30/08 eBay Dave Hanner $28.00
22 5/2/08 eBay Norm Van Brocklin $82.00
23 5/8/08 eBay Don Chandler $27.77
24 5/8/08 eBay Al Dorow $15.00
25 5/14/08 eBay Tom Scott $25.26
26 4/17/08 eBay Olllie Matson $74.88
27 5/1/08 eBay Fran Rogel $16.66
28 5/7/08 eBay Lou Groza $57.34
29 11/29/07 eBay Billy Vessels $157.50
30 12/18/07 eBay Y.A. Tittle $71.02
31 4/10/08 eBay George Blanda $43.00
32 5/11/08 eBay Bobby Layne $125.00
33 2/24/08 eBay Bill Howton $24.38
34 3/30/08 eBay Bill Wade $33.99
35 10/15/07 eBay Emlen Tunnell $46.00
36 3/4/08 eBay Leo Elter $13.76
37 5/8/08 eBay Clarence Peaks $13.00
38 3/30/08 eBay Don Stonesifer $30.77
39 3/30/08 eBay George Tarasovic $28.77
40 3/19/08 eBay 'Pete' Brewster $89.95
41 5/8/08 eBay Bert Rechichar $15.50
42 4/2/08 eBay Billy Wilson $15.50
43 1/22/08 eBay Ed Brown $62.61
44 5/12/08 eBay Gene Gedman $16.99
45 5/8/08 eBay Gary Knafelc $16.51
46 5/18/08 eBay Elroy Hirch $88.98
47 5/8/08 eBay Don Heinrich $55.00
48 5/4/08 eBay Gene Brito $16.49
49 1/30/08 eBay Chuck Bednarik $46.99
50 1/16/08 eBay Dave Mann $24.99
51 5/8/08 eBay Bill McPeak $20.26
52 5/12/08 eBay Kenny Konz $29.25
53 5/12/08 eBay Alan Ameche $39.77
54 5/1/08 eBay Gordon Soltau $20.49
55 3/14/08 eBay Rick Casares $31.00
56 5/8/08 eBay Charlie Ane $24.25
57 5/8/08 eBay Al Charmichael $26.80
58c 5/9/08 eBay Bill Sherman $18.68
58-no ram 3/9/08 eBay Bill Sherman $720.00
59 12/12/07 eBay Kyle Rote $21.50
60 2/18/08 eBay Chuck Drazenovich $24.99
61 10/15/07 eBay Bobby Walston $22.50
62 4/21/08 eBay John Olszewski $26.76
63 2/18/08 eBay Ray Matthews $61.67
64 2/18/08 eBay Maurice Bassett $24.99
65 5/15/08 eBay Art Donovan $26.55
66 5/4/08 eBay Joe Arenas $27.78
67 4/7/08 eBay Harlon Hill $15.50
68 12/16/07 eBay Yale Lary $30.99
69 5/1/08 eBay Bill Forester $19.50
70 4/15/08 eBay Bob Boyd $16.50
71 5/7/08 eBay Andy Robustelli $33.05
72 5/8/08 eBay Sam Baker $15.50
73 3/7/08 eBay Bob Pellegrini $33.32
74 6/23/07 eBay Leo Sanford $50.00
75 2/28/08 eBay Sid Watson $28.01
76 5/21/08 eBay Ray Renfro $62.99
77 1/20/08 eBay Carl Taseff $52.00
78 3/16/08 eBay Clyde Conner $45.05
79 11/27/07 eBay J.C. Caroline $26.20
80 3/11/08 eBay Howard Cassidy $42.33
81 3/1/08 eBay Tobin Rote $29.55
82 3/30/08 eBay Ron Waller $36.66
83 5/8/08 eBay Jim Patton $15.61
84 4/8/08 eBay Volney Peters $10.50
85 1/9/08 eBay Dick Lane $404.00
86 3/14/08 eBay Royce Womble $17.50
87 2/27/08 eBay Duane Putnam $32.56
88 5/19/08 eBay Frank Gifford $66.00
89 10/15/07 eBay Steve Meilinger $115.50
90 5/12/08 eBay Buck Lansford $204.72
91 4/15/08 eBay Lindon Crow $31.00
92 1/16/08 eBay Ernie Stautner $283.89
93 1/24/08 eBay Preston Carpenter $32.00
94 3/19/08 eBay Raymond Berry $1,725.00
95 2/18/08 eBay Hugh McElhenny $77.00
96 5/12/08 eBay Stan Jones $106.61
97 1/24/08 eBay Dorne Dibble $92.00
98 10/15/07 eBay Joe Scudero $86.32
99 3/30/08 eBay Eddie Bell $90.99
100 1/9/08 eBay Joe Childress $177.50
101 12/11/07 eBay Elbert Nickel $391.00
102 3/30/08 eBay Walt Michaels $76.57
103 1/9/08 eBay Jim Mutscheller $110.50
104 5/5/08 eBay Earl Morrall $767.50
105 3/30/08 eBay Larry Strickland $133.50
106 3/9/08 eBay Jack Christiansen $56.90
107 3/16/08 eBay Fred Cone $51.00
108 1/24/08 eBay Bud McFadin $85.00
109 1/30/08 eBay Charley Conerly $238.39
110 5/8/08 eBay Tom Runnels $26.00
111 5/8/08 eBay Ken Keller $27.25
113 12/16/07 eBay Ted Marchibroda $108.14
114 3/11/08 eBay Don Paul $76.00
115 1/9/08 eBay George Shaw $127.50
116 1/16/08 eBay Dick Moegle $147.50
117 3/17/08 eBay Don Bingham $150.50
118 2/5/07 eBay Leon Hart $9.99
119 2/14/08 Mile High Bart Starr $2,178.45
120 4/27/08 eBay Paul Miller $108.76
121 1/24/08 eBay Alex Webster $127.50
122 4/27/08 eBay Ray Wietecha $76.66
123 4/27/08 eBay Johnny Carson $102.50
124 5/23/08 eBay Tommy McDonald $328.00
125 2/10/08 eBay Jerry Tubbs $112.49
126 1/24/08 eBay Jack Scarbath $61.00
127 11/19/06 eBay Ed Modzelewski $510.00
128 4/27/08 eBay Lenny Moore $104.99
129 2/21/08 eBay Joe Perry $58.99
130 3/9/08 eBay Bill Wightkin $52.57
131 1/24/08 eBay Jim Doran $98.00
132 12/21/06 eBay Howard Ferguson $107.51
133 1/24/08 eBay Tom Wilson $100.99
134 10/15/07 eBay Dick James $86.90
135 1/24/08 eBay Jimmy Harris $100.99
136 8/9/07 eBay Chuch Ulrich $222.50
137 1/24/08 eBay Lynn Chandnois $117.50
138 5/12/08 eBay Johnny Unitas $1,440.09
139 1/24/08 eBay Jim Ridlon $76.00
140 2/24/07 eBay Zeke Bratkowski $617.50
141 5/15/08 eBay Ray Krouse $210.50
142 2/18/08 eBay John Martinkovic $100.99
143 4/27/08 eBay Jim Cason $33.75
144 2/22/07 eBay Ken Macafee $101.99
145 1/9/08 eBay Sid Youngelman $92.00
146 1/31/08 eBay Paul Larson $63.11
147 3/4/08 eBay Len Ford $112.50
148 4/27/08 eBay Bob Toneff $24.99
149 3/23/08 eBay Ronnie Knox $161.25
150 3/19/08 eBay Jim David $116.16
151 12/19/07 eBay Paul Hornung $1,702.00
152 3/16/08 eBay Tank Younger $225.99
153 10/31/07 eBay Bill Svoboda $555.00
154 3/30/08 eBay Fred Morrison $611.00

SKINSFAN

Thats cheap for a McDonald they have gone for much more everything seems to be down a bit right now but i would think they will be back up again soon so consider that a good price

Ravens124

<< <i>however take #140 Zeke Bratkowski, a common card that carries the min. 1.30 weight. The population report shows this to be a very tough card to obtain in a PSA 7+(24 7's and only 9 PSA 8's with no 9's or 10's). >>



Jake,
Zeke Bratkowski is a tough card to find in grades of PSA 6, 7, or 8. I'm working on the 1957 Topps set myself. I have over 75% completed with a GPA of 7.80. The Chuck Ulrich card can be another tough card to find in a good mid grade.

VitoCo1972

Those are some interesting prices. First thing Tuesday morning, I'll start drawing something up. Thanks!

Jake4Pack

Curious..and also a stupid question...but what is VCP? I assume it has to do with recent Ebay sales..but where do I go to find it?

VitoCo1972

www.vintagecardprices.com - do a search on the main thread for VCP

jay0791

btw...I won the 57 McDonald 8.......not perfectly centered but i was a good price. Sometimes, but not often I buy the case not the card.

To the guy doing the weighting.....Listen to jason (jasp24)...he spent a lot of time doing this for the FB RC HOF set...only to be shot down.

PSA went with their own book...not true values like vcp. I would contact PSA customer support and find out first what would be allowable.

Anyone needs my psa 7 McDonald let me know.........

Compared to baseball..57 FB is a bargain.

VitoCo1972

PM sent Jay