1972-S PCGS PR70DCAM Ike on Ebay

semicycler

First off, I am NOT the seller. I know many here want a PR70DC Ike so I'm posting it as a courtesy.

1972-S PCGS PR70DCAM Silver Ike Dollar!

There is no picture so I emailed the seller and she sent me one (see attached). As you can see in the attached picture, there is haze on both the obverse and reverse, spotting, and what appears to be rust on the reverse rim at 3:00 (rim toning). I like my proofs haze and spot free, with a strong strike, deep mirrors, and thick caked on frost (don't we all?). This coins obviously does not meet my requirements. If money was of no consequence, and I fancied to buy it, I would not be happy with the coin unless it was cracked out and the haze removed. Now being the realist that I am, I do not believe the coin would be regraded at PR70DCAM after crackout.

Do you think this Eisenhower is a PR70DCAM???

Comments please.

semicycler

Also check out Ike's check and jawline - is that a break in the cameo, coin pressing up against the slab, or just a scan ghosts?

lordmarcovan

I get a huge "Angelfire" logo for an image, and nothing else. I hate them. (Angelfire, I mean).

Oh. Never mind. I see your attachment, now.

cosmicdebris

If that's a PR70DCAM I have a 1978 that should be a PR80DCAM:

supercoin

I got the Ike image -- the "Angelfire" logo was probably a prettier picture!

As I've said before, I've yet to see a PR70 Ike that deserves the grade, and that one certainly doesn't change my opinion.

There is one 1978-S PR70 Ike out I would reserve pre-judging, I have never seen it in person, but a photo looked nice. It was also graded before all the 72-S and 74-S coins. And the 78-S can be more readily found exceptionally nice than any other date.

Obviously PCGS blew it on a batch of these Ikes, but again I will mention in their defense that they have willingly paid for their mistake as well -- by downgrading them to the tune of at least several thousand dollars so far.

I bet I can guess the serial number on this 72-S coin, +/- 5, in one guess.

Typetone

That piece is a good example of why I never decided to go for 70DCAM proof IKEs. The blue haze is typical of the 71 - 74 silver proofs IKEs. It comes from the govt holders. If you look at the definition of a 70DC in the PCGS grading guide, light attractive toning is allowed. I don't see how this kind of haze qualifies as light or attractive. In my view, 68DC at best.

Greg

wondercoin

I just mentioned this week on the thread regarding SBA's/Sacs that I have seen some problems in the areas of Ikes, SBA's and Sacs that relate to the super high end coins. But, as Supercoin points out, PCGS has properly addressed these problems every time they have been presented with them, best I know as well.

No question, whether it is an old classic coin, an Ike or SBA, or even a brand new state quarter, it is important to judge the coin apart from the number on the holder. But, it has been good to know that, so far, the top grading companies have stood behind their holders from what I have seen. Wondercoin.

braddick

I've always wondered what a PCGS PR70DCAM Ike looks like. After viewing that scan I'm still wondering.

semicycler

Now if the PR70DC up for auction looked like Bill's 78-S, I would have secretly set up my snipe and bragged about the auction AFTER it ended. No need to get the attention of local heavyweights!

gmarguli

Who cares what the coin looks like!!! It's a PCGS PR70DCAM and it'll go in your Registry Set. Personally I think that Ike is unattractive and with the ugly haze, spots on the reverse, and ugly frost on the cheek, I wouldn't pay PR67 money for it. However, it's in a PCGS slab and the only thing that matters is that the serial number will work when you enter the coin into your Registry Set. Stop second guessing PCGS on the grade of the coin. If the serial number doesn't work when entering it into your Registry Set, then raise hell with PCGS, but if the perfect PR70 is ugly and of poor quality, stop complaining - your serial number will still work and that's all that matters.

clevegreg

That coin is BUTT ugly. I'll bet if broke it out and sent it back in it wouldn't grade higher than PR67. If there was ever a case for buying the coin and not the holder this is it. I bet that someone from our ranks will make a run on it just to help out their Registry score. If that is the kind of coin that helps you to the top, well thats too bad.
Personally, I wouldn't pay $5.00 for the coin.

Come on folks, lets use some common sense here. This defintely relates to the thread I started a week or so ago about older PR70s. maybe we should pool our resources and buy it so we can send it back to PCGS and get rid of this monstrosity.

Greg

LALASD4

Compare that 1972-S PCGS PR70DCAM to my 1973-S PCGS PR69DCAM that I have on ebay(Item # 1326071667) makes me feel like I should send mine in for a regrade, maybe I could get a PR90DCAM.
Even my 1972-S PCGS PR69DCAM looks better than that coin.

kieferscoins

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=1326071667

LALASD4

Thanks, kieferscoins.
All the spots on the 1973 are on the holder, and you can see how reflective the field is by the light that is being reflected off of IKE's head.

psxchelly

I need to know how those hidious coins get 70's. I sent and ABSOLUTE stunning 99' G. Wash comm $5 to them that i know is a 70, and only got a 69.. am i missing something?

Are you supposed to include a box of dunkin donuts with your submissions?

dbldie55

Now I know why all you guys said you should not show scans for one of these coins.

MarkJude

I feel really bad, I returned a coin just like this one that was in PCGS-PR69-DCAM holder. If I would have known that my 1972 Silver Ike was really a PR70, I would have held onto it...

Thanks for letting us see a "perfect" Ike.

MarkJude

cosmicdebris

Scott I would have done the same.

psxchelly I know how you feel. I sent a 1999 $5 Washington and the 2000 Library of Congress bi-metal coins into PCGS. If anything should have gotten a 70 it was them but only got 69s.

wondercoin

This is the perfect thread to prove the point that the sophisticated collectors on this board are buying the coin and not the plastic!

If I got the coin in on consignment (just like the last 72(s) I got in a few months ago), with the permission of the owner, PCGS would likely be reviewing the coin for buying the coin back to take it off the market. No big deal though, the grading companies grade MILLIONS of coins and some high grades make no sense to me and some low grades make no sense to me (keeping the crackout experts VERY busy) Wondercoin.

gmarguli

This is the perfect thread to prove the point that the sophisticated collectors on this board are buying the coin and not the plastic!

What does "sophisticated collectors" and "Registry Set Collectors" have to do with each other? Sophisticated collectors collect coins, 99% of Registry Set collectors collect grades. Many of them wouldn't know a coin in an MS68 slab was only an MS65.

wondercoin

"This is the perfect thread to prove the point that the sophisticated collectors on this board are buying the coin and not the plastic"

Greg: OK. Reworded: This is the perfect thread to prove the point that the idiot collectors on this board are buying the coin and not the plastic. Does this now make everyone happy? Wondercoin.

khayse

LALASD4,

You forgot to include the standard disclaimer,
"shame-less self-promotion".



-Keith H

gmarguli

No. Clearly most of the people with Registry Sets are going for "grade" instead of quality of the actual coin. Come on, you make your living selling plastic. That's perfectly fine, I wish I could do that. But to equate sophisticated collectors and Registry Set collectors is totally wrong. Very few Registry Set collectors know enough about coins to tell a good one from a bad one. All they care about is the slabbed grade and what it'll do to their set ranking.

Honestly, how often do people ask you what the coin looks like or is it PQ for the grade or anything about the coin other than what grade is it slabbed at, what's its pop and how many higher, and how much is it? In my experience, maybe 5% of the people who purchase PCGS coins specifically for their Registry Set ask any questions about the coin. All they care about is the slabbed grade.

This proof Ike is perfect for the Registry Sets. I'm 100% serious when I say it doesn't matter what the coin looks like. Sure it looks like PCGS overgraded this coin by 2-3 points, but who cares. When this coin goes into a Registry Set, no one will know the difference.

I'd bet that many of the Registry Sets are filled with coins that shouldn't have made the grade, but people are happy with owning them because it helps their set ranking. That's not a "sophisticated collector".

wondercoin

Greg: I seem to recall that you mentioned you are not a big believer in the guarantee the major grading companies extend to the owners of their coins (i.e. PCGS and NGC). Perhaps you have personal experiences that lead you to believe that-and that is fine. But, I have said it before and I'll say it again here - I frequently present coins to the grading services for their decision to remove the coin from the existing holder and, TO DATE, I CAN NOT RECALL A SINGLE INSTANCE WHERE AN AMICABLE RESULUTION OF THE PROBLEM WAS NOT WORKED OUT TO THE MUTUAL SATISFACTION OF ALL INVOLVED.

Case in point: Two weeks ago I acted as the "middelman" for a rare finest known 20th Century variety coin (not the 1918/17(d) gem nickel). I sold the coin for a board member to another collector and it was agreed the seller would send me the coin and the buyer would send the seller the money upon my receipt of the coin. Hence, both sides (strangers to each other would be totally protected). The buyer was very excited about owning this quite rare "piece of plastic". When the coin arrived here, I determined the coin was probably not the die 1 variety recognized by the grading company, but probably one of the 9 other minor (and far less valuable) varieties of this rare coin. I presented the coin to the buyer essentially with my comment that I did not believe this was the proper variety. He also carefully examined the coin and determined it would be prudent for me to re-present the coin to the grading company for confirmation the coin was the rare coin he intended to buy. The grading company agreed with me that it was not the die 1 major variety and was misholdered. Coin back to owner; money back to buyer; owner now in discussions with grading company about how much the grading company needs to pay him for their mistake. Another case of the "guarantee" working perfectly.

I try to catch as much as I can and probably present more coins to PCGS for their re-assessment than nearly anyone out there (to the point that they are getting tired of it; just ask them about me! ) But, regardless of what I personally think, the NGC and PCGS "plastic" comes with a certain guarantee of its own to the current owner of the "plastic". And, we have seen, numerous collectors on this board also report that they have had success with utilizing this "guarantee". Bottom line: Even if you think it is nothing more than plastic, isn't it plastic with a specific guarantee attached to it, which is a very important element, considering PCGS or NGC may charge $10 to grade a coin and be forced to pay $2500, $5,000 or whatever to buy it back! Wondercoin.

semicycler

gmarguli-

First, I will concede that there must be at least one registry set listed that is more for the points than the quality of the coin - this only seems logical. BUT, I strongly disagree with you saying all (99%, most, the majority, etc.) of the registry sets are for the plastic, not the coin. My *COINS* are gorgeous and my *COINS'* PCGS grades are in line with my personal grades. Some of my *COINS* are PQ for their PCGS grade, most of my *COINS* are dead on for their PCGS grade, and a few of my *COINS* are low for their PCGS grade.

Now, say what you will about outrageous prices for top grade pieces, but do not lump all registry collectors into one big generalize group of plastic buyers. PCGS gives an opinion on the grade of a coin, the undisputed most respected opinion in the market. PCGS registry collectors, myself included, buy PCGS coins. Just because I have PCGS graded *COINS* does not mean every *COIN* I own is overgraded. This is the basis of your flawed logic.

I will side with you on pricing of top grades, I will not side with you on all registry collectors buy low quality PCGS graded *COINS*.


Wondercoin-

Reworded: This is the perfect thread to prove the point that the idiot collectors on this board are buying the coin and not the plastic. Does this now make everyone happy? Wondercoin.

Did you call just me an "idiot collector"?

wondercoin

"Did you call just me an "idiot collector"? "

That falls into the category of spoof, satire, War of the Worlds genre. I should have known better Wondercoin.

clevegreg

I agree that PCGS has done a great job when presented with a coin that is overgraded.

There are a number of folks here that DO just buy the plastic because they want to see their name in lights. Just take a look at the bidders on the coin in question, and I am sure you will recognize a name or two.

Greg

Bidder list

gmarguli

wondercoin, as far as PCGS goes, I've basically heard good things about their making good on misgrades. I've also heard about their "round table discussions" when it's going to cost them money if they downgrade the coin. I have no proof that this is true, but the person who told me was a PCGS insider. As for NGCs guarantee, I've heard mainly bad things. I don't personally bother with their grading guarantees. If I have an overgraded coin, then that's what TeleTrash is for.


semicycler, I never meant to imply that all coins in the Registry Sets were overgraded, just that many (most?) of the set builders care more about the grade than the coin. This leads them to buying coins that are overgraded coins. After all, why not have an ugly overgraded MS67 when it'll put you ahead of that nice blast white dripping with luster MS66.


Off the top of my head I know of 5 different modern Registry Sets that are all in the top 10 (or at least were at the time of sale) that have coins in them that are overgraded. These coins are all tied for the finest known and are fairly low pop coins. One of the coins is overgraded by 2 points and no one would disagree about this. That's not it's only problem. I know of these coins because I sold them. One of the coins had brown spots all over it. Ugly. The new owners didn't care. I fully expected the buyer of one of them to return the coin after telling me in email how he "carefully chooses" his coins. Before he purchased the coin, he didn't ask a single question about the coin he was buying. Not a single question. He added it to his Registry Set the day it arrived in the mail and sent me a thank you email.

I once sold a coin in person. To show him I had the coin I held up the slab with my hand covering the actual coin. All that showed was the PCGS insert. The prospective buyer looked at the slab grade on the insert. He then paid me for the coin. He never looked at the coin. All he cared about was that it was an MS68 and there were none finer. This coin happened to be very nice for the grade, but the buyer had no clue about that.

I just feel that too many Registry Set builders care more about the grade than the coin. It's their choice, but I can think of cheaper ways to stroke my ego.

dbldie55

Greg is right, the fact that PCGS and NGC honor their guarantee is only good if someone tries to use it. There are over 1,900 registry sets listed. I am sure many just bought the grades. I would also bet that many could not tell if the coin was correctly graded in the first place, which is why they buy certified coins.

If you are a registry set owner who buys the coin (and not the plastic), that does not imply that every registry set holder falls in the same category.

While Greg (now the other Greg, too many of them) may be off in using the term 99%, I am sure the number is far more than just a few that buy the grade. Remember, there is really nothing wrong with that. This is what the registry set was designed for.

gmarguli

I should have mentioned one more thing. Even in this group there are far too many people buying coins on eBay where the entire description consists of Pop 3/NONE FINER!!!

wondercoin

The folks on that bidder list can speak for themselves, but, there are many reasons to bid relatively small amounts of money in an ebay auction, especially simply to track the auction.

And, who wouldn't bid $1250 for this coin? Assuming it is a problem coin (and we are not certain of that), I would expect PCGS to promptly write that check (with pleasure) to remove this coin from the market. I would buy any of the unaccounted for PCGS-PR70DCAM Ikes we have been talking about sight-unseen for $1250/coin. I could use 5 today please. There are many serious Ike collectors that would like nothing more than to remove all the problem PR70DCAM Ikes, if any, from their holders. Wondercoin.

wondercoin

"One of the coins is overgraded by 2 points and no one would disagree about this. That's not it's only problem. I know of these coins because I sold them."

Greg: Simple question. If you agree that PCGS has an excellent buy back program, then why not simply return the overgraded coin (by 2 points) to PCGS for them to pay you off? Why sell it to a collector who now has the junk slab? And, at this point, why not tell the collector to get his money back from PCGS? Wondercoin.

dbldie55

Wondercoin, I think Greg's point is that many of these collectors (read not all) want the grade and not their money back. For some of these, it appears obvious.

Edited with additional thoughts.

Wondercoin, while you seem to be of a moral character that you would return all questionable coins, many are not. Look at both sides.
The collector side: Many want the grade!
The dealer side: They sell for more money. Why send it back to PCGS and get what you paid, when you can sell it for more. Eventually, it may get back to PCGS and the price they pay will be based on the last sale. With that said, maybe PCGS should be out buying them all up to make sure they "pay a little now instead of a lot more later".

Many dealers are like this.

(and remember, I still remember PCGS refusing to remove a Proof Liberty Nickel from a Mint State holder and refund the difference in value)

gmarguli

wondercoin, it's simple why I didn't use the grade guarantee service. I wanted to turn the coin over quickly and I also didn't know what it's value is. You seem to have an "in" at PCGS. I can't even get customer service to return my emails. I don't want to be out my purchase price for 3 months while PCGS regrades the coin and then decides what to pay me. What if they only want to pay me 50% of what I think it is worth? How long will it be before I get payment and will it be what I consider fair?

I've also sold many coins where I'm honestly stunned at the prices they bring. I'd rather sell the coin on eBay or another auction and let it bring market price. I always put a picture that captures the coin the best I can. The buyers know what they're getting. They just don't care that the coin isn't the greatest because it's slabbed and they'll get their "registry points".

I'm also not about to tell a collector to go get their money back. When people email and ask about a coin I'm auctioning, I'll tell them my honest opinion, but I'm not going to offer my opniion to those who don't ask.

dbldie55

One last point that is off topic from the title of this thread, but in line with recent comments. A coin can be graded totally correct (which means PCGS did their job) but be uglier than dirt. It will offer the same Regsitry points as a PQ example for the same grade. You can usually get the one much cheaper, and some may opt to "get the points" instead of the look. Remember, it is your collection, and if your goal is registry points, this is fine.

As for coins that fall into this category, how many "Nice" Liberty Head Nickels have you ever seen. They are very few and far between (at least for the look I want), but easily found in grades of MS/PR 65+. Easy set to build (with money), but not an easy set to make attractive. My goal is the attractive one, which is why I have so few coins (that and the money part )

(Near as I can tell, this entire comment is geared towards "classic" coins and not moderns. Wow)

wondercoin

dbldie55 and Greg: I better understand your point of view now.


dbldie55: Interesting that your experience is very similar to mine that many, many gem MS65 classic Liberty nickels don't measure up. Yet, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE GEM LIBERTY NICKELS IS NOW IN THE HANDS OF A COLLECTOR OR DEALER. They got there somehow-right? Is this just a perfect example of buying the "plastic not the coin" when it comes to most classic gem grade Liberty nickels then? Wondercoin.

dbldie55

Wondercoin: I think we are saying two things. I did not say that they were incorrectly graded, I just said that most of the ones I have seen are ugly (by my definition which does not need to be followed). Most of these nickels have an tone that is unsightly to me. Many will have a brown tone, sometimes fairly deep. Some people like the tone, I just happen to be one that does not. So I will stick by with my statement that attractive high grade Liberty Nickels are few and far between. (even the ugly ones end up somewhere, if the price is right, you are still buying the coin and not the number on the holder.)

robbnsc

Looking at this particular PR70DCAM Ike, all I can say is that I have a couple Proof Ike's in my registry set that will certainly match this coin. Does that make my Ike's PR70DCAM's? I don't think so!

dbldie55

I have one additional question.

Is the following statement hype?

"One of only 19! Ultimate grade! A MUST have for anyone putting together a PCGS registry set! This is the one of only 2 dates in the entire series that has received this lofty grade. don't let this opportunity pass you up!"

semicycler

According to the January 2002 PCGS printed population reports for PR70DCAM's:

1972-S Silver: 19 total graded
1974-S Silver: 10 total graded
1977-S (Clad): 1 total graded

<edit to remove opinion - drinking and posting is a no-no>

supercoin

Wondercoin -- Assuming it is a problem coin (and we are not certain of that) -- are you kidding? Are we looking at the same photo? You might want to clarify that statement if you want people to continue to buy coins from you sight-unseen.

dbldie55, hype? Well, except for the fact there are 3 Ike dates in that grade, unfortunately that statement is actually pretty factual, if you change it to "a must have for anyone putting together a top-ranked PCGS registry set".

That's a scary truth about the PCGS registry. Sad to say, I believe there are series (and no, not just modern dollars), where if you want to compete with a top-ranked set in the registry you have to buy an overgraded coin. I'm telling ya, it's a brilliant PCGS conspiracy to keep these overgraded coins locked up in collections instead of coming back for regrades!

Trivia contest -- Guess how many of the 32 Ikes graded PR70 (there are only 30 now, Wondercoin and I each downgraded one) were from the same submission? Winner gets a "PR70" quality coin.

wondercoin

Supercoin. I guess 31.

Listen, until I see a coin in person I will not state based upon a picture that PCGS is wrong. That is simply showing respect. I have enough statements you can find to set me up for trouble without attacking the "politically correct" ones Wondercoin.

supercoin

Bzzzzt... wrong. Good guess, though, since the lone 78-S was previously mentioned as being certified before the others. And you're on the right track. Next?

By the way, I strongly agree, in general, about not pre-judging from a photo. But for a "perfect" grade and that photo I think I'm safe in making an exception.

dbldie55

Which makes me guess 30. Questions could arise from this.

As for the PR70 in question, you guys are the expert on these. Can't one of these proof coins develop a haze after a period of time? I know I have seen them in the original Government plastic do this. I know copper coins can change colors in their holder, and the grading services do not (and really could not) make guarantee's against this.

This coin could have changed in the holder. Plus, you can never take one simple scan and get the true coin, so you would need to see it to make any final judgements.

As for Mitch's comments about not making judgements about a company, I am glad on your Proof Washington thread you took my comments in the way I intended, which was asking your opinion on the merits of the grade knowing you would "turn them back in" if you felt the grade was not deserved.

supercoin

We have a winner!! Congratulations, you get a fabulous vacation package for two to Hawaii, all-expenses paid (by you). And, a fabulous "PR70" quality coin (if you want it).

The 1978-S was certified quite a bit earlier than the others (don't know exact date). I don't know who certified it, or if it's a "true" 70, but it looked nice in a photo.

One 1972-S was certified by someone I know, who says it was a nice haze-free coin. But, I haven't seen it, and have no idea if it's a "true" 70 or not.

The remaining 30 coins were all within one submission, and I believe it was a bulk submission. That's one of the reasons I'm not crazy about grading companies having a bulk-submission policy (i.e. specify a minimum acceptable grade).

From the coins I've seen or heard about from those 30, so far all of them have been hazy. My considered guess -- no more than that, not having seen all the coins -- is that none of them would make PR70 today.

wondercoin

dbldie55: Nice guess, but wouldn't it be fair to go to HA together, as you piggybacked off my guess?

That's 2/2 in contests for you dbldie55. I just finished hadpicking the coins I am sending you for your contest win. I know you will enjoy them. Wondercoin.

LALASD4

khayse,

I just thought the board members here would like to get a really nice coin, notice that I did not say all my coins are of the highest quality. Only the 1973-s pr69dcam and the 1974-s ms68 are high end coins. Here is a chance here for the board members to buy the coin and not the holder. Unless you are planning to buy the 1972pr70dcam and send it to PCGS.

dbldie55

Well, in wondercoins previous words, I would hate to make presumptions based on not seeing these coins ( and even if I saw them, I could not make any true conclusions ) it seems very odd that a major majority of the coins in this grade came in one submission ( which I would assume is one submitter ).

I think this was a business judgement lapse in the past which seems to have been corrected. (unless you can tell me who did this, which may change this opinion)

Tad, what coin did you have in mind? A nice PCGS Ike would do (in any grade ) unless you have some hidden Liberty Nickels.

supercoin

Hey, I said "PR70" quality coin, i.e. a raw proof. In fact, it's even better than PR70 quality. But I might be able to scrounge up a PCGS Ike if you prefer.

Regarding that one submission, I suppose it's possible, but seems unlikely, that multiple people combined to submit on one invoice.

As to why it happened, I don't have a clue... hopefully the submitter was not David Hall Rare Coins.

Once in a previous job I had, they were installing new carpet in our office building while a group of us were on a tight project deadline, diligently trying to stay at our desks. I can tell you that after just a few minutes, carpet glue fumes can be really debilitating.

That's my theory until I hear a better one.