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All you ever wanted to know about Chinese counterfeits but were afraid to ask









Photos kindly offered by the greekcoins forum.gr.




  • coinpicturescoinpictures Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭
    It's a scary world we live in... image
  • Wow. Thank you Dimitri
    "I has a bucket." - Minazo.
    Minazo the LOLRUS, 1994-2005
  • direwolf1972direwolf1972 Posts: 2,076 ✭✭✭
    I'll see your bunny with a pancake on his head and raise you a Siamese cat with a miniature pumpkin on his head.

    You wouldn't believe how long it took to get him to sit still for this.

  • PBRatPBRat Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭
  • PreussenPreussen Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭
    image That is really scary. -Preussen
    "Illegitimis non carborundum" -General Joseph Stilwell. See my auctions
  • STONESTONE Posts: 15,275

  • Wow. And forum posters still bid on raw Trade dollars, etc. posted on ebay. If these pictures don't scare the bejeesus out of ebay bidders, nothing will.

  • << <i>Wow. And forum posters still bid on raw Trade dollars, etc. posted on ebay. If these pictures don't scare the bejeesus out of ebay bidders, nothing will. >>

    Would you prefer to pay a premium for a slabbed one then? If they are that good can anyone tell the difference anymoreimage
  • ElKevvoElKevvo Posts: 4,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I like the silk covered boxes they put them in...adds a nice touch to the operation.

    ANA LM
  • SYRACUSIAN, Respectfully, I have always enjoyed your Posts on this Forum, as I have all other Posts. There is always the one Post, that will have an impact that is far reaching and an outstanding service to the collecting community, that is not immediately recognized. An Encyclopedia has been typed on the various Forum Boards concerning this subject. It tends to be interesting reading for a day, worth some gossip at the work place the next day during a coffee break and then flutters to the dark recesses of awareness. There is a "mental resistance" to the subject, I think, because it may require us to look in our own "closets" and discover that which we choose to ignore may be there- a counterfeit. It is comfortable to have the subject touched on from time to time , and move quickly thru the period,with a satisfying thought of " thank goodness it didn't happen to me". This is no longer possible, thanks to your Post.. The information contained within the pictures is a universal language understood immediately by all,without debate or definition of the written word or phrase. I elect your Post to the Category I stated above..an outstanding service to the collecting community. Thank You for removing the "mental resistance". Respectfully and Sincerely, John Curlis
  • Whats the one with the arrow pointing to it??
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 16,957 ✭✭✭
    Unbelievable. image

  • << <i>Whats the one with the arrow pointing to it?? >>

    I think the first arrow is pointing to a Greek coin die since it was originally posted to a Greek coin forum. The second picture with the arrow shows the person making the counterfeits.
  • thanks for sharing the information.
  • BearBear Posts: 18,954 ✭✭
    Gosh, I though those pictures

    were of the USA MINT.image
    There once was a place called
  • newsmannewsman Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭
    Now I'm really afraid to ask. imageimage
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,606 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would like to know much more.image
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

  • ebaytraderebaytrader Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭

  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    Those are fascinating pictures! Thank you for posting them. I have long been curious about what these operations might look like. I see here they are not casting coins but actually milling them. I wonder how they made the dies.
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    I wonder these people get paid and what sort of profit these operations make.
  • thanks for pointing out that 'the emperor has no clothes'....

    Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
    'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
  • SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,444 ✭✭✭✭

    << <i>I wonder these people get paid and what sort of profit these operations make. >>

    The working conditions look depressing. You don't expect these people to have their dental insurance covered by the employer....


    DPOTD 3
  • ASUtoddASUtodd Posts: 1,312 ✭✭
    ANyone ever thought about sending these pics to Fleabay??
  • SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,444 ✭✭✭✭

    Thank you all, I'm glad to be able to share them. The pictures are not widely circulating on the internet, they were discovered by the new board of direction of the Athens Numismatic Club who has all the credit for finding them ,after several complaints by the members who fell victims to these copies.

    I assume that the dies were made using real examples of the coins, and by reversing the minting process. Hence the ability to tell a fake, since all the copies made from a certain die will show the problems of the coin that was used to make the die. These copies have an unnatural new look, but with the same wear as the original coin.


    DPOTD 3
  • ajaanajaan Posts: 17,029 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very interesting.

    'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'

    CU #3245 B.N.A. #428

  • MeijiMeiji Posts: 170 ✭✭
    Crap. If they are making these with dies, how are we to tell them apart from the originals?

    The problem is that I usually look for that "Cast" look to tell a fake.

    If the weight is correct, made out of the correct 90% silver content, the dies are pretty accurate, and it has been artificially aged to look real... we're in trouble.
  • ajaanajaan Posts: 17,029 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In trouble only if the dies are 100% correct.

    'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'

    CU #3245 B.N.A. #428

  • pendragon1998pendragon1998 Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭
    Geeze - were those gold sovereign dies or crowns?
  • MacCrimmonMacCrimmon Posts: 7,050 ✭✭✭

    << <i>In trouble only if the dies are 100% correct. >>

    The dies look like they were hubbed from worn, original coins. Pistricci's horse looks a tad flat. Anyone want to bet the edge devices are either missing or crude at the very least?

    And one last observation for now; I believe the Chinese must pirate and copy everything, and the PRC government condones every last bit of it. image

    Do we know who took those original pictures?

  • unreal...cant they go back to making cheap and affordable toxic sneakers?
  • NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Something that needed to be seen. Thanks.
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,508

    << <i>Geeze - were those gold sovereign dies or crowns? >>

    Crowns. I bought a fake Chinese Crown from a British seller a year or so ago. It was hard to tell from the real thing, except for the extra metal that flowed into the coin edge rims. scary, but only if they are convincing fakes.

  • << <i>ANyone ever thought about sending these pics to Fleabay?? >>

    What could eBay do about it?
  • UdoUdo Posts: 984 ✭✭
    Well, I'm speechless image
  • I am now afraid of buying any coin on eBay without a pedigree unless it is valued under $10 so it is not affordable to sell by a fly by night seller selling fakes...

    Will anyone do anything? I don't think so. Definitly not some auction site like eBay that is making big $$$ on every sale or theft that it condones, ignores or covers up in its marketing ploys...

    Just my 2 cents worth...

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed lamb contesting that vote. Benjamin Franklin - 1779

    1836 Capped Liberty
    dime. My oldest US
    detecting find so far.
    I dig almost every
    signal I get for the most
    part. Go figure...
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    This has been going on well before the advent of ebay. In fact, this really isn't about ebay at all. This little factory makes fakes to sell to the eager uninitiated. 'Twas ever thus!
  • I was in Beijing about 18 months ago and saw these coins EVERYWHERE! And not just crown-sized coins, either. All sizes and denominations, both Western (although I saw only copies of silver coins) and Chinese (both cash coins, earlier forms of Chinese money such as knife coins, and later Chinese silve). As a present for someone interested in coins, I bought about 40-50 copies of Chinese dollar coins. I paid around 15-20 cents each after some haggling and demonstrating unequivocally that I knew the coins to be fake (starting price was a few dollars each). Generally, these coins would not really fool anyone with more than a passing knowledge of the types involved, although one or two were not too bad as copies. The price I paid indicates a manufacturing cost of maybe 2-10 cents per coin, though. Imagine what these people could accomplish if they could manufacture coins for a cost of 1-2 dollars each, and maybe even spend a few additional dollars to make them in silver...

    When transferring flights on my way home, I was stopped at the security checkpoint at Helsinki airport. The security guy asked me to open my carry-on so the "weird" lumps of metal that had show up on the X-ray could be inspected. Judging from his complete lack of surprise and interest, it was clearly not the first time he saw someone bringing in fake coins in quantity from China.

    A grade is an inadequate report of an inaccurate judgement by a biased and variable judge of the extent to which a coin corresponds to an undefinable level of an unattainable state of preservation. - Never tell me that grading is science.
  • shirohniichanshirohniichan Posts: 4,992 ✭✭✭
    I'm going to have to save a link to this thread. Every time someone asks if the 1878-CC trade dollar on eBay with a starting bid of 99 centts is real, I'll post the link.
    Obscurum per obscurius
  • BobSavBobSav Posts: 913 ✭✭✭
    Did they allow you to keep the fakes or were they confiscated?

    Past transactions with:
    Lordmarcovan, WTCG, YogiBerraFan, Phoenin21, LindeDad, Coll3ctor, blue594, robkoll, Mike Dixon, BloodMan, Flakthat and others.
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,508

  • GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 16,794 ✭✭✭✭✭

    << <i>image








    Photos kindly offered by the greekcoins forum.gr. >>

    Holy Carp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! image
  • DJCoinzDJCoinz Posts: 3,856
    Cripes! That is really scary...
    aka Dan
  • ARCOARCO Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Note to self; never buy a raw draped bust dollar...EVER!

    What are the large sovereign looking dies?
  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,662 ✭✭✭✭✭
    look at the writing on the third picture, as far as its likely location i mean
    maybe someone can translate

    maybe it says
    stupid americans??image
    LCoopie = Les
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,508

    << <i>Note to self; never buy a raw draped bust dollar...EVER!

    What are the large sovereign looking dies? >>

    1822 George IV Crown
  • cucamongacoincucamongacoin Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭
    A co worker here in So Cal brought some counterfeits for me to look at. He had eight different, I believe, and had paid $20 for all of them. They were light weight, pewter grey in color, very similar to circ silver, and at a glance were of decent quality, obviously struck from dies and not cast.
    <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.ebay.com/sch/cucamo...?_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc="> MY EBAY
  • jdillanejdillane Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for sharing. This really comes as no surprise given what we have seen on the bay of late, but as they say about a picture being worth a 1000 words...
  • Syracusian, I'd like to thank you very much for this post...... I'd also like to say that this is unbelieveable, But.... Talk bout a picture being worth a thousand word's....... And now with alot of these fake's showing up in Bogus Slab's. People are going to have to really keep on their toe's when buying on eBay.... I have never bought any of these on there, But i do have many that i purchased from an individual locally. This is one very imformative post. I think you deserve a big round of applause from everyone.image I also hope that you may of saved many folk's alot of money. I remember one seller in particular as will many on this forum that used to sell alot of these, I'm not sure what she goe's by now. But her name was Pamela Donnelly.

    As many may recall, She was booted from ebay so many time's, And alway's came back under another seller's name. I wonder if she is still on eBay? Talk about a ripoff artist. JMHO, That i am sure is the same as many other's.

    Way to go, Your post are alway's informative,

    Thank's Again, ozzysdad47
    " I just checked in , Just to see what condition, My condition was in." Kenny Rogers and the 1st. Edition......
  • wybritwybrit Posts: 6,952 ✭✭✭
    Unbelievable, yet at the same time, not the least bit surprising. Unfortunately, the technology to do this type of "work" will only get better, to the point where it would seriously damage the hobby.

    In the meantime, the best thing we can do is not to sell coins to that country. If they have good examples of original pieces, they will turn up later in droves.
    Former owner, Cambridge Gate collection.
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