PerryHall, Respectfully, yes.. C O R E A . It is sometimes worthwhile to read the history of other countries. Sincerely and Without Intent to Flame. Respectfully, John Curlis
<< <i>The problem that collectors of US coins will encounter is margins. The margin on darkside material is much higher than it is for US coins. Given the investment outlook of many US collectors, they are going to have a hard time adjusting to a field in which their chance of making a profit is very slim. >>
Ehh? What are you saying? The chances of making a profit on Darkside material are hardly "slim." In fact, as a general rule, I do FAR better on Darkside material than U.S.
<< <i>Ehh? What are you saying? The chances of making a profit on Darkside material are hardly "slim." In fact, as a general rule, I do FAR better on Darkside material than U.S.
Of course, knowledge is key... >>
Yep. For example, if someone pays "EF money" for a slabbed EF-40 British coin -- say an Victoria shilling -- and then tries to get "EF money" for it from a collector who specializes in British coinage, they will be in for a rude awakening.
Knowing what you're collecting would prevent you from paying full "EF money" (according to Spink and other price guides) for a coin which that market probably considers to be VF.
I would happily pay over Krause for many coins on the darkside.
In the US, many coins came into their own over time as collector interest grew. This same phenoma is happening with world coins on a steadily growing basis.
What you think you are paying 'high retail today' is chickenfeed to what this stuff will be worth for the long term collector. Its cheap and spreads are not as wide as some are saying.
We have just started this internet boom and growth in world economies will manufacture thousands more collectors.
Plus you have foreign exchange on your side in recent years.
I understand we are all Americans and like US coins but think about what is going on in some of these countries and ask yourself if coin collectors will grow and want their own countries coinage. Russia has gone berserk. So will other countries too.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I would happily pay over Krause for many coins on the darkside.
In the US, many coins came into their own over time as collector interest grew. This same phenoma is happening with world coins on a steadily growing basis.
What you think you are paying 'high retail today' is chickenfeed to what this stuff will be worth for the long term collector. Its cheap and spreads are not as wide as some are saying.
We have just started this internet boom and growth in world economies will manufacture thousands more collectors.
Plus you have foreign exchange on your side in recent years.
I understand we are all Americans and like US coins but think about what is going on in some of these countries and ask yourself if coin collectors will grow and want their own countries coinage. Russia has gone berserk. So will other countries too. >>
It's true that these markets are maturing but there are still lots of world coins that will trade to dealers at a small fraction of Krause.
Ten years ago you could buy some coins for 5 or 10% of Krause but despite soaring prices most coins will bring at least half Krause now on eBay. This doesn't necessarily mean they're worth that much, just that demand is much deeper than in the past.
Today, you'll probably have to pay 75% Krause for many popular items but beware; foreign coin grading is far tougher than US and coins that don't have real demand in their country of origin might be difficult to sell in the future.
Just like in US coins, if you decide to throw money at them as an in- vestment you're likely to get less thrown back at you when you cash out even if the market is still increasing. These are great to collect and have tremendous potential to increase in value. If you get in to have fun then you'll probably succeed and make some money as a bonus.
<< <i>I would happily pay over Krause for many coins on the darkside.
In the US, many coins came into their own over time as collector interest grew. This same phenoma is happening with world coins on a steadily growing basis.
What you think you are paying 'high retail today' is chickenfeed to what this stuff will be worth for the long term collector. Its cheap and spreads are not as wide as some are saying.
We have just started this internet boom and growth in world economies will manufacture thousands more collectors.
Plus you have foreign exchange on your side in recent years.
I understand we are all Americans and like US coins but think about what is going on in some of these countries and ask yourself if coin collectors will grow and want their own countries coinage. Russia has gone berserk. So will other countries too. >>
It's true that these markets are maturing but there are still lots of world coins that will trade to dealers at a small fraction of Krause.
Ten years ago you could buy some coins for 5 or 10% of Krause but despite soaring prices most coins will bring at least half Krause now on eBay. This doesn't necessarily mean they're worth that much, just that demand is much deeper than in the past.
Today, you'll probably have to pay 75% Krause for many popular items but beware; foreign coin grading is far tougher than US and coins that don't have real demand in their country of origin might be difficult to sell in the future.
Just like in US coins, if you decide to throw money at them as an in- vestment you're likely to get less thrown back at you when you cash out even if the market is still increasing. These are great to collect and have tremendous potential to increase in value. If you get in to have fun then you'll probably succeed and make some money as a bonus. >>
Since we're talking about world coin "markets", which is something my area of collecting, i'll weigh in.
Krause is WAY outdated in the most popular issues. Forget only paying or getting 75% Krause for most of the more popular country's coins that are "on fire". These include the following that are largely in order of most popular in terms of prices realized these last few years:
- Russia - China - Greece - Great Britian - Canada - Germany/German States - Poland
i'm leaving a few out, but you get the idea. I have personally sold more than a few coins from these countries over the last couple years, and ALL BUT ONE, was sold over Krause (i'm speaking of better "collector" grade stuff, not worn bullion-ish stuff). In fact, I can't count on two hands the number of coins from these countries that i've sold in the past couple of years thave sold for 4-5 times current Krause value. There are TONS of colletors for this stuff, and much of it is being bought up by collectors worldwide. In fact, if you're going to get top dollar in my experience for your world coins, they are going to new homes overseas.
The coin market in other countries is fast becoming a huge industry, with a strong collecting base. Just ask Ron Guth of PCGS that was recently at a large Berlin show his thoughts, he was blown away by how elaborate the coin show was in a recent interview I saw with him. I have personally been to a couple shows in China that were MUCH larger than anything we have here in the US. Some of the large Hong Kong, Singapore, and Chinese dealers were out in full force; many had a tremendous amount of rare US, British, Chinese and coins from other "hot" countries; much of it was NGC and PCGS slabbed.
With the wonders of the Internet, a person can easily do research into the large overseas (Hong Kong, London, Berlin, Moscow, etc.) coin auction houses to see their realized prices. It shouldn't come as a surprise to many when you see that a good percentage sold for WELL above current Krause values, many times by multiples. In fact, keep your eye out on the upcoming Goldberg 'Millenia' world coin auction that is reputed to set new records for prices realized. With that auction, you can pretty much throw Krause away and get ready to write large checks should one be interested in bidding.
The one thing I will agree with that has been previously said is in regards to graders; Europeans especially grade far more strict in terms of coins than Americans do. They don't use any "market grading" or allow coins with cabinet friction or very slight rub sail through under an 'uncirculated' banner. So, if one has a strict eye for grading, and can shake off many of the sliding scale grading practices that Americans have adopted, then it is not too difficult to develop a more critical eye.
Overall, the market is big, but is only getting bigger. These next few years should continue to boom for nicer world coins in general
Thanks for the post. It is extremely enlightening.
It's also a little frightening since some of these countries have always been among my favorites and I was able to acquire the coins at a small percentage of Krause before the prices exploded upward.
I'm a Darkslider....(a LordMism) I buy and collect anything that catches my eye. It's the diversity of the Darkside that drags me in, so much beauty. And to you US history guys....part of my and your history is from the Darkside. Mine is primarily German and Norwegian. What's yours?
<< <i>I'm a Darkslider....(a LordMism) I buy and collect anything that catches my eye. It's the diversity of the Darkside that drags me in, so much beauty. And to you US history guys....part of my and your history is from the Darkside. Mine is primarily German and Norwegian. What's yours? >>
Yes. The US has never existed in a vacuum. We've had help and lent support of other countries right from the start. Immigrants built the US (and natives) and the whole world is closely connected especially in modern times.
Thanks for the post. It is extremely enlightening.
It's also a little frightening since some of these countries have always been among my favorites and I was able to acquire the coins at a small percentage of Krause before the prices exploded upward.
I suppose I should be selling. >>
Sure, no problem! There is some decent stuff in B&M's upcoming Baltimore auction. If you take one country for example that is currently hot in world coins (China), you will see some decently scarce stuff being sold. The auction isn't even live yet, and already many lots here have gone 50% over their estimates, and some have even doubled already. Watch when these close in Baltimore, and i'll bet some will bring multiples of their estimates, let alone Krause.
What was most interesting is that when I first thought about entering back into collecting, I never even considered World Coins. Over time, almost every collection I would buy seemed to have a few. After a while the box I kept them in got a little too full and one day I decided to start to go through them. Soon I strove to create a binder with at least one coin from each country. Later I ran into a few from the 1800's and was hooked. I abandoned the notion of the type set and wanted to know/learn/collect more. Before I knew it became common practice to go through all the world coins I would get right away. Today I am up to 7 binders of coins, and another one dedicated to World currency. I have some ancients, medieval, and stuff from the 17th Century and on. Now the World coins get scrutinized for better stuff, 2x2'ed, cataloged, and arranged into one of the 7 binders very consistently. I know little of the history of these coins and use that opportunity to spend copious amounts of time in Wikipedia learning about Tikran the Great, and where the heck Isle of Man is. It has been quite rewarding and the collection has become worth some real money. It is a lot of work, and reminds me of my younger days when a lot of stuff made it only into 2x2’s because I could not afford the albums. I called Dansco about a month ago and found out they will be making Canadian coin albums again after about a 40 year hiatus. I will be buying a few. I keep it all raw today, but I am getting the itch to start sending some of the nicer stuff to get graded. I don't even want to think about that torrent once it gets started. I now realize that coins are coins and there is a richness that transcends the hobby regardless of country of origin.
This was a good thread. It was nice seeing so many people respond.
Once you fall in the darkside there is no going back! I learn something new about garman states/austrian states/italian states/swiss cantons almost every week.
I have a place in my collecting heart for Irish gun money. Very interesting history involved, what with the legend that, among other things, medieval era cannons were melted to make the coins. And, the deposed James II reminds me of Cap'n Hook!
One of the nice things is that if you shop right, you can buy coins hundreds of years old, in very high grade, at tiny fractions of what equivalent U.S. coins from the same era sell for. Ultracameo proofs from 1890-1940 for $150-400... mint state copper from the 1600s and 1700s for $50-250. If you're into varieties, RPMs, errors, etc., Central and South American coinage is a veritable goldmine, with material easily found in junkboxes.
Sure, the profit potential may not (and I stress "may") always be there to the same degree as Lightside, and the liquidity is not as good, put if you are truly collecting rather than investing, you can go wild for cents on the dollar.
If you're a topical collector, there's nothing like the Darkside.
Esoteric? Heck, I'm casually working on a date set of Hungarian Madonna and Child silver denars from 1500-1600 and the most I've spent on any coin has been $25.
The area is ripe for cherrypicking too. Many U.S. dealers, especially smaller and/or backwoods dealers, tend to eschew foreign material, selling for miniscule prices compared to what the material can sell for online.
"Who wants to mess with that foreign crap?"
"Uhhh... I do, and I'm more than happy to relieve you of that tiresome burden... How much? 30% of Krause? Suuuuuure!"
Comments
Looking forward to pictures of your newp on the Darkside boards, when you get it in.
8 Reales Madness Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>The problem that collectors of US coins will encounter is margins. The margin on darkside material is much higher than it is for US coins. Given the investment outlook of many US collectors, they are going to have a hard time adjusting to a field in which their chance of making a profit is very slim. >>
Ehh? What are you saying? The chances of making a profit on Darkside material are hardly "slim." In fact, as a general rule, I do FAR better on Darkside material than U.S.
Of course, knowledge is key... >>
Me too!
<< <i>Ehh? What are you saying? The chances of making a profit on Darkside material are hardly "slim." In fact, as a general rule, I do FAR better on Darkside material than U.S.
Of course, knowledge is key... >>
Yep. For example, if someone pays "EF money" for a slabbed EF-40 British coin -- say an Victoria shilling -- and then tries to get "EF money" for it from a collector who specializes in British coinage, they will be in for a rude awakening.
Knowing what you're collecting would prevent you from paying full "EF money" (according to Spink and other price guides) for a coin which that market probably considers to be VF.
As I browse eBay for coins that strike my fancy
That's the fun of being a Coin Collector !!
In the US, many coins came into their own over time as collector interest grew. This same phenoma is happening with world coins on a steadily growing basis.
What you think you are paying 'high retail today' is chickenfeed to what this stuff will be worth for the long term collector. Its cheap and spreads are not as wide as some are saying.
We have just started this internet boom and growth in world economies will manufacture thousands more collectors.
Plus you have foreign exchange on your side in recent years.
I understand we are all Americans and like US coins but think about what is going on in some of these countries and ask yourself if coin collectors will grow and want their own countries coinage. Russia has gone berserk. So will other countries too.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I would happily pay over Krause for many coins on the darkside.
In the US, many coins came into their own over time as collector interest grew. This same phenoma is happening with world coins on a steadily growing basis.
What you think you are paying 'high retail today' is chickenfeed to what this stuff will be worth for the long term collector. Its cheap and spreads are not as wide as some are saying.
We have just started this internet boom and growth in world economies will manufacture thousands more collectors.
Plus you have foreign exchange on your side in recent years.
I understand we are all Americans and like US coins but think about what is going on in some of these countries and ask yourself if coin collectors will grow and want their own countries coinage. Russia has gone berserk. So will other countries too. >>
It's true that these markets are maturing but there are still lots
of world coins that will trade to dealers at a small fraction of Krause.
Ten years ago you could buy some coins for 5 or 10% of Krause but
despite soaring prices most coins will bring at least half Krause now
on eBay. This doesn't necessarily mean they're worth that much, just
that demand is much deeper than in the past.
Today, you'll probably have to pay 75% Krause for many popular items
but beware; foreign coin grading is far tougher than US and coins that
don't have real demand in their country of origin might be difficult to
sell in the future.
Just like in US coins, if you decide to throw money at them as an in-
vestment you're likely to get less thrown back at you when you cash
out even if the market is still increasing. These are great to collect and
have tremendous potential to increase in value. If you get in to have
fun then you'll probably succeed and make some money as a bonus.
<< <i>
<< <i>I would happily pay over Krause for many coins on the darkside.
In the US, many coins came into their own over time as collector interest grew. This same phenoma is happening with world coins on a steadily growing basis.
What you think you are paying 'high retail today' is chickenfeed to what this stuff will be worth for the long term collector. Its cheap and spreads are not as wide as some are saying.
We have just started this internet boom and growth in world economies will manufacture thousands more collectors.
Plus you have foreign exchange on your side in recent years.
I understand we are all Americans and like US coins but think about what is going on in some of these countries and ask yourself if coin collectors will grow and want their own countries coinage. Russia has gone berserk. So will other countries too. >>
It's true that these markets are maturing but there are still lots
of world coins that will trade to dealers at a small fraction of Krause.
Ten years ago you could buy some coins for 5 or 10% of Krause but
despite soaring prices most coins will bring at least half Krause now
on eBay. This doesn't necessarily mean they're worth that much, just
that demand is much deeper than in the past.
Today, you'll probably have to pay 75% Krause for many popular items
but beware; foreign coin grading is far tougher than US and coins that
don't have real demand in their country of origin might be difficult to
sell in the future.
Just like in US coins, if you decide to throw money at them as an in-
vestment you're likely to get less thrown back at you when you cash
out even if the market is still increasing. These are great to collect and
have tremendous potential to increase in value. If you get in to have
fun then you'll probably succeed and make some money as a bonus. >>
Since we're talking about world coin "markets", which is something my area of collecting, i'll weigh in.
Krause is WAY outdated in the most popular issues. Forget only paying or getting 75% Krause for most of the more popular country's coins that are "on fire". These include the following that are largely in order of most popular in terms of prices realized these last few years:
- Russia
- China
- Greece
- Great Britian
- Canada
- Germany/German States
- Poland
i'm leaving a few out, but you get the idea. I have personally sold more than a few coins from these countries over the last couple years, and ALL BUT ONE, was sold over Krause (i'm speaking of better "collector" grade stuff, not worn bullion-ish stuff). In fact, I can't count on two hands the number of coins from these countries that i've sold in the past couple of years thave sold for 4-5 times current Krause value. There are TONS of colletors for this stuff, and much of it is being bought up by collectors worldwide. In fact, if you're going to get top dollar in my experience for your world coins, they are going to new homes overseas.
The coin market in other countries is fast becoming a huge industry, with a strong collecting base. Just ask Ron Guth of PCGS that was recently at a large Berlin show his thoughts, he was blown away by how elaborate the coin show was in a recent interview I saw with him. I have personally been to a couple shows in China that were MUCH larger than anything we have here in the US. Some of the large Hong Kong, Singapore, and Chinese dealers were out in full force; many had a tremendous amount of rare US, British, Chinese and coins from other "hot" countries; much of it was NGC and PCGS slabbed.
With the wonders of the Internet, a person can easily do research into the large overseas (Hong Kong, London, Berlin, Moscow, etc.) coin auction houses to see their realized prices. It shouldn't come as a surprise to many when you see that a good percentage sold for WELL above current Krause values, many times by multiples. In fact, keep your eye out on the upcoming Goldberg 'Millenia' world coin auction that is reputed to set new records for prices realized. With that auction, you can pretty much throw Krause away and get ready to write large checks should one be interested in bidding.
The one thing I will agree with that has been previously said is in regards to graders; Europeans especially grade far more strict in terms of coins than Americans do. They don't use any "market grading" or allow coins with cabinet friction or very slight rub sail through under an 'uncirculated' banner. So, if one has a strict eye for grading, and can shake off many of the sliding scale grading practices that Americans have adopted, then it is not too difficult to develop a more critical eye.
Overall, the market is big, but is only getting bigger. These next few years should continue to boom for nicer world coins in general
Thanks for the post. It is extremely enlightening.
It's also a little frightening since some of these countries have always been among my
favorites and I was able to acquire the coins at a small percentage of Krause before the
prices exploded upward.
I suppose I should be selling.
But be careful.....the Darkside might even be more addictive than US coinage.
<< <i>I'm a Darkslider....(a LordMism
Yes. The US has never existed in a vacuum. We've had help and lent support
of other countries right from the start. Immigrants built the US (and natives) and
the whole world is closely connected especially in modern times.
<< <i>Doogy;
Thanks for the post. It is extremely enlightening.
It's also a little frightening since some of these countries have always been among my
favorites and I was able to acquire the coins at a small percentage of Krause before the
prices exploded upward.
I suppose I should be selling. >>
Sure, no problem! There is some decent stuff in B&M's upcoming Baltimore auction. If you take one country for example that is currently hot in world coins (China), you will see some decently scarce stuff being sold. The auction isn't even live yet, and already many lots here have gone 50% over their estimates, and some have even doubled already. Watch when these close in Baltimore, and i'll bet some will bring multiples of their estimates, let alone Krause.
B&M link
This was a good thread. It was nice seeing so many people respond.
1733 Taler - Charles VI - DAV-1037
Sure, the profit potential may not (and I stress "may") always be there to the same degree as Lightside, and the liquidity is not as good, put if you are truly collecting rather than investing, you can go wild for cents on the dollar.
If you're a topical collector, there's nothing like the Darkside.
Esoteric? Heck, I'm casually working on a date set of Hungarian Madonna and Child silver denars from 1500-1600 and the most I've spent on any coin has been $25.
The area is ripe for cherrypicking too. Many U.S. dealers, especially smaller and/or backwoods dealers, tend to eschew foreign material, selling for miniscule prices compared to what the material can sell for online.
"Who wants to mess with that foreign crap?"
"Uhhh... I do, and I'm more than happy to relieve you of that tiresome burden... How much? 30% of Krause? Suuuuuure!"
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps