Are we still WARNING each other to "Buy the coin, not the plastic", HERE ?

pop1

Is constant warning that the purchase of a coin of high grade and small pop is a risk, still necessary?
Are the "plastic vs. coin" comments now exhausted?
This IS a place for discussion of registry sets, isn't it?
Is a newbie to reg. sets, still a newbie to coin collecting in general?
Who here is going to benefit from the constant "kind words of caution", then, further promises of a future "I told you so"?

To tell you the truth, I think telling us, that our coins that are going up in value, are going to EVENTUALLY go down in value, is getting rather old.
"Words to the wise" "of things to come" to "wise up", "tip off", or "raise a red flag", (hopefully) is not really necessary in this, our forum of sophisticates.

"Preaching to the choir", again? The loudest pew sitters sing rather sourly.

Coinmonger

Wise up.

pop1

I assume that that comment is in agreement with me. "Wise up" is exactly just what I'm saying. The constant barrage of "plastic vs. coin" in this forum is getting unnecessarily redundant and embarassingly silly.

pop1

Maybe, I'm wrong. Perhaps I dialed up the wrong forum. I think I got "Dear Abby's" advice column for wannabe coin collectors. Sorry.
I heard that there was a "registry forum" around here someplace.
Does anyone know anything about locating the forum for registry set collectors to discuss THEIR hobby?

braddick

The irony here is Registry collectors (I speak only for the ones I know) DO buy the COIN- it's only the "plastic" that confirms the coins status/grade.
The COIN stands alone. If not, you're in the wrong hobby.

Mitch's MS69 NY State quarter is worth its value because it is a genuine GRADE RARITY. All the PCGS holder does is confirm this.
To those that state it's only worth 25cents outside of the plastic holder apparently does not know the series and/or how to grade!

And, as long as we're on the subject of this first ever made MS69 State quarter, I'll go out on the limb and state I don't believe another will EVER be made- or if so, will be another state and the TOTAL POP for the intire run will remain single digits. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I don't think I will be.

Now, if you want to debate "Grade Rarity" over "Coin Rarity"- that would be a separate Thread. This NY is definitely a top canidate, along with Supercoin's MS69 Sac dollar for a coin that probably will never be duplicated.

pop1

Exactly, Braddick. Warnings to anyone, but, perhaps the 'one in the mirror', I assume and trust, are, wasted here.

PQpeace

I ALWAYS buy the coin, and not the slab if I am going to KEEP the COIN.If I am going to try and sell the coin to make a few bucks,I may buy the plastic.
Registry sets should be made of top quality coins,not quality plastic.
Larry

pop1

For those who may think me harsh, here's an anology.
What was the exchange value on the Italian lira, French or Swiss franc, to Euro-dollars?
Now that there is an active market for the eurobuck(s), the original point may be moot, as there is now an established means of identifyable and accepted exchange. Such are pcgs coins. The grades on the plastic are simply "confirmations of acceptance" for purposes of exchange - Accepted by all, or not.

wondercoin

"And, as long as we're on the subject of this first ever made MS69 State quarter, I'll go out on the limb and state I don't believe another will EVER be made- or if so, will be another state and the TOTAL POP for the intire run will remain single digits. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I don't think I will be."


Braddick: This figure may be a few thousand off (I didn't use a calculator), but it looks like PCGS has graded roughly 90,000 regular issue Washington Silver, Clad and State quarters before awarding the first coin with an MS69 grade. As I mentioned on another thread, for comparison purposes, PCGS has graded roughly 8,000 Jefferson nickels (1938-2001) without awarding an MS69 grade yet.

Now, many folks are also referring to this time period as the period of "tight grading" at PCGS. PCGS had roughly 3 years to examine state quarters before determining this coin to be the single nicest quarter they ever graded.

If you asked PCGS if they expect to grade more MS69 state quarters in the years ahead, I could almost predict their answer, which would likely be "we'll grade every one submitted to us that is an MS69". PCGS has graded roughly 450 MS68 state quarters so far. I have personally made -3- of them!! I have searched far and wide and have made -3- MS68 state quarters EVER at PCGS despite large submissions. Maybe I am unlucky and my bags, mint sets, rolls etc over this 3 year period were overall junk

But, it is very neat to handle this MS69 coin and, hopefully, the new owner will have no problem with me proudly posting scans of the coin on my website and/or on this board real soon Wondercoin.

dbldie55

I agree, everyone knows this warning. They should remove the warning on cigarettes too. Everyone knows it. Every collector of Registry sets has already been to this forum and read all about this warning. There are no new collectors coming into this market that may not know this valuable information.

The warnings are not for those who always oppose them. Just like the warning on cigarettes are not for the people who smoke and are highly likely to die from it.

For what it's worth, we sent a PCGS MS65 Franklin in for a re-holder. Came back in a MS68 holder. Is this a PCGS Grade rarity, pop 0/1/0?

Perhaps I missed the thread you are referring to, all I saw was the question of "If you broke a coin out, would it grade the same?" Why is this such an invalid question?

Dealers in raw coins give this guarantee. Dragon did this last year. Sold a raw Morgan with the grade of MS64 DMPL (If I recall), and it came back with the grade given, so he won that contest. My local dealer guarantee's all of the grades of his raw coins. Why is it against the rules to ask if you guarantee the grade PCGS gives. If this grade is so accurate, how come you can send the same coin in three times and get a different grade everytime? Are all three grades correct, since PCGS gave them?

I am not bashing PCGS here, they are human, and make mistakes like everyone else with the possible exception of some of this boards members.

MJCoin

Pop 1, you have many times over hit the nail right on the head. If you, as a collector don't understand the purpose of PCGS in this equation then you should post your whining on the Coin World gripe page, not the PCGS Registry forum. We as passionate and dedicated numismatists know the difference a single grade means to the value of certain coins. Especially when that coin happens to be a population 1 coin out of 90 some thousand coins graded. "Wise up" Yes indeed, please do!

QuickMiata

<< <i>To those that state it's only worth 25cents outside of the plastic holder >>



I think they are worth 25 cents in the plastic. Well maybe 30 cents as plastic cost a few beat up pennies per 100 tons to make in china.

pop1

"My local dealer guarantee's all of the grades of his raw coins. Why is it against the rules to ask if you guarantee the grade PCGS gives. If this grade is so accurate, how come you can send the same coin in three times and get a different grade everytime? Are all three grades correct, since PCGS gave them?

I am not bashing PCGS here, they are human, and make mistakes like everyone else with the possible exception of some of this boards members "

So you're proposing letting pcgs make mistakes, but a coin dealer of high quality coins has to guarantee your purchase for you to feel ok?

How can your "local dealer" guarantee his grade?
How can he support his guarantee, unless he SENDS HIS COIN TO PCGS?
It's the language of the "modern" coin collector.

dbldie55

If a customer wants the coin graded, he will send it to PCGS. If it grades as advertised, then the customer pays the grading, if not, he gets a refund. It can go both ways, as you should know. As an example of his grading, he sent in a Proof Walking Liberty Half, that has been in the store for as long as I can remember graded PR-61. PCGS called it PR63. I know he just had a Cameo Seated Half that was PCGS PR64CAM come back PR65CAM.

For what it is worth, he has been in business for over 25 years, and graded coins for PCGS. He has worked with some people who are regulars on this board.

He attends all of the shows, sends coins to PCGS and NGC on a regular basis. In two weeks he will be at PCGS for some sort of dealers invitation event. Next month he will be doing a walk thru at Long Beach with one of my coins.

pop1

Aren't you making my point? Doesn't the act of sending his coins to pcgs for support of his guarantee make the point? I think it is great that he grades so accurately and has such a guarantee, but you must realize that he supports the plastic grade that supports his guaranteed grade, right?

dbldie55

But of course he will not send in any modern clad stuff to be graded. I keep trying to convice him the money he can make on them, but he does not believe in that area of the market so he will not go into it. He does deal in Franklins (sold one awesome collection of them in '99), Washingtons (his personal set graded MS66 or 67 when he sent them in last year) and some Roosevelts.

kyleknap

There is now way that you registry guys can sit here and tell me you buy the coin and not the slab! That's bull sh!t. Most of you guys buy/sell sight unseen, which means you are not even considering the quality of the coin. And you would much rather have a coin in a 69 holder than a 68 holder, no matter what it looks like. And if your coins were raw , they would be worth face value. That MS69 quarter in a 2x2 flip is worth 25c. What makes it worth whatever it's worth is the piece of plastic it is in. Real coins have value no matter wht they're in. I have never seen you guys pay big premiums for PQ coins, as there are none, because the coin doesn't matter to you at all. If you guys garentee the grade, then I should be able to buy every coin in Mitch's inventory, crack them all out, and not asingle on should come back lower, right?

Kyle

pop1

No moderns but Franklins and Roosies, et al? Oh, well. We seem to be coming closer to agreement here.
I assume you realize that, "modern" coin collector, was said, not,
"modern coin" collector.

wondercoin

dbldie55: I sat next to your dealer friend, Dale, at dinner around Thanksgiving week here in S. CA. Real nice guy. I reckon I'll see him again in about 10 days and I'll make it a point to mention our "sparring" and fun on the boards. Might even show him a neat modern coin or two and if he says "really nice coin", watch out!! Wondercoin.

pop1

Why guarantee what happens on a regular basis?
Not every coin sent to regrade at pcgs gets upgraded. Some stay the same, and some come back lower. That's the nature of being a human being. Not all is as constant as some would like.
Life is not guaranteed, but those living tend to assume that they are, or their opinions are beyond reproach. Let's send all those feelings in for a regrade.

dbldie55

Wondercoin: If you can convince him to make some money with them, go for it. I can't. I have no trouble with someone making money with what ever. People sell cars they would not own, why not coins.

Edited to add who the statement was addressed to.

pop1

I bought a replacement furnace today, exactly like the one owned by the salesman, other salesmen and the owners of the company. Luckily, the system isn't a Pop.1.

keithdagen

Kyle,

A while back, I wrote this opinion of a "modern coin" that was offered on E-Bay for the board since I got to see it in person.



<< <i>Obverse is extremely sharp, with marks consistent for grade. Superb strike, with a lot of detail around the ear, hair in that area, and along the part. Reverse has marks consistent for the grade and the strike is weak in the tail feather area, very similar to the 1966. More so on the left side than the right, and the lower shield is a little muddy as well.

Toning -- not going to be dippable in my opinion. Toning is not as bad as the picture will indicate. If you love rich original toning that has to be held and seen to be appreciated, you might like it. If you want a coin that looks good in photos or scans, don't bid. Obverse has rich browns, with yellow, red, and green mixed in at certain angles.

Pat, best way I can describe the toning is that if you consider the 68-D you won in my auction, this is similar, except that the 68-D had more true color, while this one is muddier in appearance and didn't "fill out" as well.

Bottom line -- based on a $75 MS-66 and $750 MS-67 level, this is a good value below $500 and overpriced above that level because of weak eye appeal. Strictly my opinion. >>



That was in regards to a MS-67 Kennedy half from 1964 that had very deep toning. Market price at the time was $750 for a 67 and the coin sold to a board member for $425. So maybe us "registrants" do care a little for what is in the holder.

Keith

wondercoin

dbddie55: As I mentioned to you a brief time ago, my specialty areas greatly overlap your friend Dale, especially when you point out his enjoyment of Franklins, silver Wash quarters, and silver Roosevelt dimes (not to mention early Jefferson nickels). Just a quick minute look at my website and you will see that probably well over approx. 75%-80% of the coins I sell (value-wise) are pre-1960 (mainly 1932-1950's). Sounds like Dale enjoys that era as well.

As for the convincing of selling freshly minted coins as well, you said you suggested it and failed. You may not have noticed, but ebay is flooded with modern coin sellers; it's OK that he is happy to ignore that arena Wondercoin.

PQpeace

Hey Kyle,
Tell us how u really feel about this subject
Larry

pop1

I tend to wonder which hobby has a stronger pull, coin collecting on the coin forum, or coin collector bashing on the reg. forum. Hmmm.
I know which one is cheaper.

PQpeace

The only problem I have..along with MANY others about this Registry Forum,is that there are a few guys who make there living selling registry coins that live on this board.Does anybody think we will ever get a straight/honest answer from any of them ?
Their answers have to be what puts $$$ in their pockets.They don't care if they are selling coins,plastic,wigits or whatever..IMHO
Larry

lordmarcovan

I always say buy the coin AND the plastic...

pop1

I guess it comes down to the level of sophistication of the collector, not the dealer. Without dealers, there would be no collectors, no hobby. No matter your purpose or goal, it all comes down to your ability to scrutinize the coins, the deal.

madmike

<< <i>There is now way that you registry guys can sit here and tell me you buy the coin and not the slab! That's bull sh!t. Most of you guys buy/sell sight unseen, which means you are not even considering the quality of the coin. And you would much rather have a coin in a 69 holder than a 68 holder, no matter what it looks like........... >>



I don't think that's a fair assessment of the collectors on this board.

While this may be true about someone, somewhere... you can't just lay this blanket statement out about everyone who owns a Registry Set.

I'll say again (the same thing I say everytime we hear this) that I've personally purchased PCGS graded coins which were subsequently replaced with PCGS graded coins of the same grade soley for the reason that for the grade, the coin was just homely. In fact there was one I replaced four times.

Is this the action of someone who is just interested in the plastic?

I purchased a nickel once in PCGS MS65. I later purchased a coin (online) that was meant to upgrade that slot in my collection to PCGS MS67. Guess what the outcome was... Once I had the MS67 on the table next to the MS65 I sold the MS67 and kept my original MS65. And why? Because it didn't have the eye that the MS65 had.

Are there people out there who will buy an ugly coin just for the numerical grade? I'm yet to meet one. Does anyone else have firsthand experience with someone of this nature (If so let us know, I've got some coins to sell! )

I believe that most folk that post here love coins... who wants to own ugly ones?

I don't think any of us do.

madmike

braddick

Something must be interesting over on this side of the Forums- we get enough of the Modern Bashers to keep collectors busy!

So, where's the Classics Forum? Oh, that's right: Not enough interest to formulate and maintain one.

PQpeace

nevermind.

supercoin

dbldie55, re: convincing that dealer to get into slabbing moderns, perhaps it's his business sense rather than a distaste for modern coins that keeps him out.

Despite what your opinion may be about prices for some of these high-grade PCGS coins, it's actually a lot of work to make decent money finding and certifying them yourself. If it wasn't, of course, everybody would be doing it, perhaps even yourself. It's tough to base a business on finding the winning lotto ticket in a dumpster full of paper.

Still, in his position, I'd probably peek at the 1981-S SBA in any mint sets that crossed my desk, he must have some down-time during the day.

dbldie55

Well, I listed 50+ plus coins for him today. He is going to see how these go to see if it is even worth that time vs. selling them dealer to dealer. He has very little down time, but I will have him start looking through the 1981 Mint Sets. During the 1999 MS68 SBA auction last week, I went in and peeked at the couple of my 1999 SBA Mint Sets. While not a grader, I will guarantee that they were not even MS67 (I don't think they were MS66).

As for me becoming a seller, I usually never sell anything. One of the coins I listed for my dealer today is mine. I am starting to lean towards selling some of my accumulation of stuff to put into some Mint State Liberty Nickels. I did bring 4 rolls of dollars in today to trade in for cash towards what seems to be an awesome Proof Liberty Nickel. This coin is better than what I have chose to collect, but looks to be a sure CAM (actually it looks like a sure DCAM which PCGS has graded 2 for the entire series).

Not sure how this thread got to this point, but it does sound like my dealer will see Mitch in a couple of weeks at that PCGS get-together. Should I have him bring up the scans on the New York?

As to Mitch's comment about the number of sellers on Ebay for the Modern coinage, these are in categories that I do not frequent often, so I really have not noticed. (Can you guess the 5 categories I view on a constant basis? I suppose if you look at what I bid on you could.)

If he reads this, he still owes me some coins for the commem contest a few weeks ago (I hope he sees this )

FoundingFather

We are hitting upon a very important topic: the inherent risk in placing so much trust and money with corporate policy, standards, printouts, and opinion. This extra risk is enlarged when grade-rarity among common coins is the focus of a lot of dollars, since the fundamental base upon which it rests is less stable. The extra risk is increased once again by the amount of shades between mint grades, allowing for changing standards, opinions, companies, people to make this subjective task more questionable. Entire sets, ranking as #1, 2, 3, whatever, can be instantly demoted if resubmitted or analyzed by a newer, more popular grading service.

Sure, keeping dollars in coins is risky if you are interested in preserving your "capital" or even, hopefully, achieving some growth in the value of your collection, or coins you may want to sell or trade at some point. But it seems to me that these price multiples under these conditions, with so much emphasis on subjective rarity and corporate involvement, along with the obvious hype these last years, needs to be discussed openly, often, considering it is where so much of the new dollars get sucked into.

This board, being a PCGS board, is self-promoting and most people around here have a good deal of their money and time wrapped around coins that need their holders and labels to be anything near what they are. A PCGS label seems to be "proof" that your coin is that specific number, therefore, validating your expenditure based upon a pop report that could change tomorrow or be at the mercy of crackouts.

So, to answer the question of this thread, which is "Are we still WARNING each other to "Buy the coin, not the plastic", HERE ?" the answer is yes.

pop1

I guess some, those who have been listening to you, would feel offended that you feel the need to be redundant.
On the other hand, maybe there are those who spend their money without listening to you.
Maybe some of those who are tired of hearing the same thing over and over, DO look at the coin, and not just the plastic.
If you think your incessant "warnings" are still necessary, then by all means, keep it up. If you have any respect for those you converse with, then, perhaps, you can assume that some are "getting it". Just a thought...

FoundingFather

Sorry Pop1, but your opinions or assessments of what I write, or of what other people think about what I write, has no influence on what I write (with rare exception). You apparently think it might, as if I agree with your assertions. If you would like to discuss the validity or details of the points, great. If not, you are probably better off skipping my posts since I won't be getting personal and will just be sticking to the issues. I tend to ignore the rest, just a thought. In any case, I will be writing what I think, end of story. Got it? Good. Just another thought.

pop1

Believe me, FF. I GET YOUR thoughts. I get 'em. I got 'em. And I suppose I'll get some more of 'em. Not a problem. Please just realize that, LIKE YOU, most here are a bit sophisticated. Can't you give in to this thought a bit? The coin forum is more appropriate for your warnings, where new blood can benefit from your old warnings. Here, in our (well established) registry forum, it's getting superfluous to make the same point to the same people, over and over again.

FoundingFather

I don't believe I have been doing anything "too much," sorry. I am just responding to posts. If sellers do obnoxious things in a public forum, the reaction is the reaction. Stop trying to control it. I only wrote this because your ridiculous thread does just that. Remember, you see this forum one way, and others see it another. I do not plan on casting warnings all over the place, as you have implied or assumed. So, I think you are worried about nothing. Go on, talk about your #3 sets or whatever. Just relax to the fact that some people are naturally fair and balanced. Someone asking for $150 for a new quarter from last year seems ridiculous to me and warrants the reaction it got. Just like you say certain comments are old, I can say the same thing about the things I am responding to. In any case, don't worry, I won't overdo anything. I'll behave.

pop1

Ok. Agreed. There may be peace in the Mideast before we agree on the purposes of our REGISTRY FORUM. Nevertheless, I hope you and all others are having fun.
Sincerely,
Steve
PS. Number Three Set??? Pleeeeeze.

FoundingFather

Let me be even clearer, I hear where you are coming from and I am not planning on invading this forum. I was busting chops a little bit when I said "Pop1, be careful out there" because I knew you didn't want warnings or help In the Wondercoin thread, he was my CoinFoe in the past so I had to razzem'. I was just stirring things up a bit because I was gone for a while and it is interesting to see what has and hasn't changed since I was away. In any case, my focus, when around, will be more on sharing and learning, as it should be. Although I am sure you will catch a little sarcasm from me once in a while, heh. As a matter of fact, I hope to learn from you. See you around the boards.

pop1

What would our forum be without sarcasm? Bring it on, and let's all have fun.

PS. Your next post/ad, wc? --"Oh boy, have I a uniquely beautiful coin for our discussion. I think it may be technically, the finest Wash. Qtr. in existance.
(Oh, and by the way, PCGS agrees, and has graded the coin an ms69, their first ever in the entire series.) PM me if interested."

MJCoin

Correct me if I'm wrong, but how many times have we come across an ms69-70 graded coin that has somehow developed more flaws since being slabbed? When I purchase a high grade coin I do have a return policy if not completely satisfied with the coin. I have yet to be dis-satisfied with Mitch, Teletrade, or whoever! What they have described is what I have got. As far as the short/long term value is concerned, please voice your opinions. They are just like *** *****, everyone has one! As far as buying the plastic, We are not paying for the plastic, we are paying for the GRADE! And yes, if the coin is broken out the holder, heaven forbid! I could just imagine breaking out an ms69 to what....Try for a 70! In closing, if you are going to be so critical of graded coins, invest your money in a nice bank account. Think of the fun you will have, and a guaranteed profit

MarkJude

Wow, after taking about 15-minutes to read this thread, all I can say is ENOUGH!

As a new member, I appreciate most of the advice that is spread thoughout ALL of the forums, but for crying out loud, I am an adult and can make my own decisions and my own mistakes. I do not need anyone to tell me what to do with my money. If I wanted to spend $5,000 on a modern coin, great for me! If you would rather not, great for you.

I am also tired of hearing that I am collecting the plastic and not the coin.

Here is my story, I have three very small registry sets and during the past month, I have returned over a dozen coins because they do not meet MY standards. I do care what number is on the plastic because that is the current measuring stick, but if it is going to go into my set, it must meet MY standards for the grade. That's the bottome line.

Thanks for letting me vent...

MarkJude

MJCoin

MarkJude, I couldn't have said it better myself.

pop1

Aah. Thank you gentlemen.

dbldie55

While replying in another thread, a thought that should go here occurred to me.

First off, if you "buy the coin, and not the holder", then obviously this thread was not geared towards you so you should not be offended.

Second, everytime this comes up, it is usually referred to a thread of Modern Bashing. So I am going to gear it towards Classics.

A coin may be graded correctly, but be ugly. This coin will have the same registry points as a PQ example. Now, if you are in the game for points, one will be much cheaper and the way you may go. This is fine, as that is what the registry is for (points). Now, I have seen many ugly morgans, but the series I collect may be the best example. How many nice Liberty Head Nickels have you seen? For the look I want, they are very rare. Anyone with money can assemble a top quality Registry set fairly easily. Doing one with the look I want (the only opinion I can really present) is very hard.

So, you could end up buying a MS65 Morgan for decent MS65 money, and when you go to sell it, you get well below wholesale because it is ugly. So, the warning applies to classics too. But buy the coins that fit your goals.

Also, what one person calls beautiful, another calls ugly. For me, most toned coins are downright ugly. That doesn't mean that they are not beautiful to you.

Happy Collecting