I dont know how you guys can tell ANYTHING from a virtual (or real) photo of a coin anyway! Luster is something that does not really show up on a photo as luster is a reflection of light! Other than a few "markers" like the hit on the cheek of the OP coin, a pic isnt really that useful to me.... just MHO!
What we've got here is failure to communicate.....
<< <i>I dont know how you guys can tell ANYTHING from a virtual (or real) photo of a coin anyway! Luster is something that does not really show up on a photo as luster is a reflection of light! Other than a few "markers" like the hit on the cheek of the OP coin, a pic isnt really that useful to me.... just MHO! >>
Bob, let me assure you, the quality of those pictures is commensurate with the value of that coin. This was no Brownie Starmite II that took those pictures. But, that's how I can make that determination on that basically flat, lifeless surface off those pictures.
<< <i>I dont know how you guys can tell ANYTHING from a virtual (or real) photo of a coin anyway! Luster is something that does not really show up on a photo as luster is a reflection of light! Other than a few "markers" like the hit on the cheek of the OP coin, a pic isnt really that useful to me.... just MHO! >>
Bob, let me assure you, the quality of those pictures is commensurate with the value of that coin. This was no Brownie Starmite II that took those pictures. But, that's how I can make that determination on that basically flat, lifeless surface off those pictures. >>
Highlight on bolded text. IMHO that is why the "Artist" painted the surfaces of that awesome Gobrecht, to cover up the lifeless proof surface, get into a TPG slab and sell it for big bucks. To that extent he/she apparently succeeded. And BTW Bb56, Proof coins do not exhibit lustre.
Cheers!
Kirk
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
and Proven AT Coin Unfortunately, our hosts had the audacity to *POOF* this thread. But the real evidence cannot be zapped by the monitors and the links posted here are a great read for anyone interested in the OPs interest in QDB's commentary on "coin doctoring"
Those who have the ambition to go back and digest this content will find that some numismatists/posters and others don't even think that ATing coins should even be considered "doctoring" let alone be a punishable criminal offense!
I'm sorry the original thread that inspired me on this topic got *POOFED* but at least some of the remnants remain as well as the 1839 Gobrecht that ties all of these threads together!
Cheers!
Kirk
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>IMHO that is why the "Artist" painted the surfaces of that awesome Gobrecht, to cover up the lifeless proof surface, get into a TPG slab and sell it for big bucks. To that extent he/she apparently succeeded. And BTW Bb56, Proof coins do not exhibit lustre. >>
Kirk, I disagree that proof surfaces are lifeless. Or, at any rate, that's not how I was using that term. I was using lifeless to describe that dead surface. It should reflect, and it obviously doesn't.
Luster, BTW, wasn't my word. For what that's worth...
<< <i>You know ..all this BS about the toning is all trivial crap.The real issue should be about the counterfeit coins.The actual changing of a date of a coin or removal of surface flaws.The methods used today to change a date of a coin have improved over the years and that is what should be the focus of attention..... >>
I agree that individual collectors should collect what they find attractive while understanding the risks and finding appropriate ways to mitigate them. For example, collecting high-end coins with TPG guarantees. However, my interest goes beyond the individual collector's perspective and I am also interested in the state of the art capabilities of doctors and how that impacts the overall hobby and marketplace, specifically:
* What changes are possible and in what time frame. What is the "state of the art" in terms of doctoring so to speak. At the time when this coin was published here, there was a lot of debate over whether the look could be achieved by doctors.
* The financial ramifications on a per-coin basis. How much can the value of a coin change through doctoring, what is the gain for the doctor and what is the financial and repuation impact for the TPG.
* The financial ramifications on a TPG and overall market basis. How increasing amounts of deception can affect collector confidence in general and the overall health of the TPG business. This is of interest from both the health of the coin collecting hobby in general and the financial health of individual TPGs.
Combine the individual collector perspective with the doctor, TPG, and marketplace perspectives, and we can see what effect there is on the overall hobby, which is an interseting topic to me.
Regarding the name, much like naming websites, it was a name that wasn't taken yet. Sometimes, you just want to register and get on with the posting!
<< <i>You know ..all this BS about the toning is all trivial crap.The real issue should be about the counterfeit coins.The actual changing of a date of a coin or removal of surface flaws.The methods used today to change a date of a coin have improved over the years and that is what should be the focus of attention..... >>
>>
Hell, who said that? Hell, I must have missed it! Hell, I agree too! Hell, I think I'm stuttering!
Doctoring and counterfeits are both important. There are many threads on counterfeiting so it's not an either or situation. Both are being discussed and addressed.
I think there would be less of an issue with doctoring if there wasn't often a deception element to it and their work was done in the open. However, this would likely reduce the gains for the doctors and losses for the TPGs.
<< <i>IMHO that is why the "Artist" painted the surfaces of that awesome Gobrecht, to cover up the lifeless proof surface, get into a TPG slab and sell it for big bucks. To that extent he/she apparently succeeded. And BTW Bb56, Proof coins do not exhibit lustre. >>
Kirk, I disagree that proof surfaces are lifeless. Or, at any rate, that's not how I was using that term. I was using lifeless to describe that dead surface. It should reflect, and it obviously doesn't.
Luster, BTW, wasn't my word. For what that's worth...
PS: OK, you buyin'? >>
kurtdog,
I agree the surface was "dead"; and "lifeless" is a synonym, IMO. I directed the lustre remark @ Bankerbob56 (i.e, Bb56) b/c mirror surfaces do not have the same qualities as Mint State pieces that reflect light in the traditional cartwheel fashion that we call "lustre".
Anyway 's on me!
Cheers!
Kirk
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
Comments
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
<< <i>I dont know how you guys can tell ANYTHING from a virtual (or real) photo of a coin anyway! Luster is something that does not really show up on a photo as luster is a reflection of light! Other than a few "markers" like the hit on the cheek of the OP coin, a pic isnt really that useful to me.... just MHO! >>
Bob, let me assure you, the quality of those pictures is commensurate with the value of that coin. This was no Brownie Starmite II that took those pictures. But, that's how I can make that determination on that basically flat, lifeless surface off those pictures.
<< <i>
<< <i>I dont know how you guys can tell ANYTHING from a virtual (or real) photo of a coin anyway! Luster is something that does not really show up on a photo as luster is a reflection of light! Other than a few "markers" like the hit on the cheek of the OP coin, a pic isnt really that useful to me.... just MHO! >>
Bob, let me assure you, the quality of those pictures is commensurate with the value of that coin. This was no Brownie Starmite II that took those pictures. But, that's how I can make that determination on that basically flat, lifeless surface off those pictures. >>
Highlight on bolded text. IMHO that is why the "Artist" painted the surfaces of that awesome Gobrecht, to cover up the lifeless proof surface, get into a TPG slab and sell it for big bucks. To that extent he/she apparently succeeded. And BTW Bb56, Proof coins do not exhibit lustre.
Cheers!
Kirk
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
and This one
and This one too! Some good stuff here!
and Proven AT Coin Unfortunately, our hosts had the audacity to *POOF* this thread. But the real evidence cannot be zapped by the monitors and the links posted here are a great read for anyone interested in the OPs interest in QDB's commentary on "coin doctoring"
Those who have the ambition to go back and digest this content will find that some numismatists/posters and others don't even think that ATing coins should even be considered "doctoring" let alone be a punishable criminal offense!
I'm sorry the original thread that inspired me on this topic got *POOFED* but at least some of the remnants remain as well as the 1839 Gobrecht that ties all of these threads together!
Cheers!
Kirk
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>IMHO that is why the "Artist" painted the surfaces of that awesome Gobrecht, to cover up the lifeless proof surface, get into a TPG slab and sell it for big bucks. To that extent he/she apparently succeeded. And BTW Bb56, Proof coins do not exhibit lustre. >>
Kirk, I disagree that proof surfaces are lifeless. Or, at any rate, that's not how I was using that term. I was using lifeless to describe that dead surface. It should reflect, and it obviously doesn't.
Luster, BTW, wasn't my word. For what that's worth...
PS: OK, you buyin'?
<< <i>You know ..all this BS about the toning is all trivial crap.The real issue should be about the counterfeit coins.The actual changing of a date of a coin or removal of surface flaws.The methods used today to change a date of a coin have improved over the years and that is what should be the focus of attention..... >>
I agree that individual collectors should collect what they find attractive while understanding the risks and finding appropriate ways to mitigate them. For example, collecting high-end coins with TPG guarantees. However, my interest goes beyond the individual collector's perspective and I am also interested in the state of the art capabilities of doctors and how that impacts the overall hobby and marketplace, specifically:
* What changes are possible and in what time frame. What is the "state of the art" in terms of doctoring so to speak. At the time when this coin was published here, there was a lot of debate over whether the look could be achieved by doctors.
* The financial ramifications on a per-coin basis. How much can the value of a coin change through doctoring, what is the gain for the doctor and what is the financial and repuation impact for the TPG.
* The financial ramifications on a TPG and overall market basis. How increasing amounts of deception can affect collector confidence in general and the overall health of the TPG business. This is of interest from both the health of the coin collecting hobby in general and the financial health of individual TPGs.
Combine the individual collector perspective with the doctor, TPG, and marketplace perspectives, and we can see what effect there is on the overall hobby, which is an interseting topic to me.
Regarding the name, much like naming websites, it was a name that wasn't taken yet. Sometimes, you just want to register and get on with the posting!
<< <i>
<< <i>You know ..all this BS about the toning is all trivial crap.The real issue should be about the counterfeit coins.The actual changing of a date of a coin or removal of surface flaws.The methods used today to change a date of a coin have improved over the years and that is what should be the focus of attention..... >>
Hell, who said that? Hell, I must have missed it! Hell, I agree too! Hell, I think I'm stuttering!
I think there would be less of an issue with doctoring if there wasn't often a deception element to it and their work was done in the open. However, this would likely reduce the gains for the doctors and losses for the TPGs.
<< <i>
<< <i>IMHO that is why the "Artist" painted the surfaces of that awesome Gobrecht, to cover up the lifeless proof surface, get into a TPG slab and sell it for big bucks. To that extent he/she apparently succeeded. And BTW Bb56, Proof coins do not exhibit lustre. >>
Kirk, I disagree that proof surfaces are lifeless. Or, at any rate, that's not how I was using that term. I was using lifeless to describe that dead surface. It should reflect, and it obviously doesn't.
Luster, BTW, wasn't my word. For what that's worth...
PS: OK, you buyin'?
kurtdog,
I agree the surface was "dead"; and "lifeless" is a synonym, IMO. I directed the lustre remark @ Bankerbob56 (i.e, Bb56) b/c mirror surfaces do not have the same qualities as Mint State pieces that reflect light in the traditional cartwheel fashion that we call "lustre".
Anyway
Cheers!
Kirk
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES