A 'Dr. Laura' type Moral/Ethical question:

braddick · January 24, 2002 5:41AM

Say you are putting together a set of PCGS Registry coins. You're in the top five and happy. You have decided to pop all your coins out of their PCGS holders and carefully place them into a nice coin album (maybe like the ones Littleton now sells-).

You keep all your inserts, and the coins are all yours. Is this active Registry still valid? Are coin taken out of PCGS holders still considered 'PCGS' coins or are they now raw? And, if they're raw- even with the insert- should you be allowed to keep your Registry?

Also, follow up question here: Say your are adding a coin to this coin album of yours and accidently allow the plastic slide page to hairline one or two of your beauties. You know this slight damage now decreased the grade(s). Do you have a moral or ethical obligation to remove this coin from the Registry as it now really no longer qualifies?

On a more likely note- What if one of your coins is left in the sun and the holder melts and damages the coin- or it is accidently placed in the washer (left in your pocket) and the coin inside the PCGS holder spots/damages? Are you then responsible to dutifully remove that coin from your Registry set? What if you loose it? No matter how hard you try to find it, it is just gone! Do you remove this coin after awhile?

sonofagunk · January 24, 2002 5:56AM

I think all of these problems would go away if PCGS changed their "agreement". They should only "rent" you the holder and if your coin is removed that you would be legally REQUIRED to inform them. This is taken out of Microsoft's book where you really do not own you Windows 98, they just let you use one of theirs. Of course this would have no affect on reality...

supercoin · January 24, 2002 5:59AM

I believe the answer to all your questions, except perhaps losing the coin, is "it's ok", if the coin in question is a PO-01.

Go in peace.

robbnsc · January 24, 2002 6:03AM

The ethics are clear. In all three instances the coins should no longer be certified. You have changed the "state" of the coin by taking them out of the slab, or by damaging them. The same is true of any collectable asset. Certification is in effect the same as an appraisal process, because it is used to assign value. Any change to the state or condition of the asset nulls the appraisal, or in this case the certification. Those are the rules for any collectible asset and coins should be the same.

dragon · January 24, 2002 6:16AM

braddick,

Those are interesting questions. I once saw a beautiful complete set of high grade SLQs where the owner had broken every coin out of its PCGS holder and the set was in a custom made lucite capital holder(s) with each of the PCGS tags below each coin. That set sure looked really impressive in that capital holder.

Technically, once a coin is broken out of its holder, it's now a raw coin and should not be included in a 'certified' registry set. Even if you keep the coin in its exact same condition and save the tag, there's no guaranty that it would re-grade the same if re-submitted, so it now has to be considered a raw coin only thus not eligible to be a registry coin. Also, if you lose or damage a registered coin, I would think it would be the responsible thing to remove the coin from your listed set. JMO.

Dragon

shirohniichan · January 24, 2002 6:21AM

If people would just take 3-D scans of their coins, register the image, and destroy the original coins, this problem would never happen. This is the greatest strength of the Virtual Registry.

FoundingFather · January 24, 2002 6:21AM

Braddick, stop that. You know all of the answers.

solid · January 24, 2002 6:26AM

I would agree with robbnsc on this one.

You should remove your set from the current finest listings, but leave them in the all-time list.

Ken

michael · January 24, 2002 6:47AM

i agree with dragons thoughts on the matter.........sincerely michael

Coin Finder · January 24, 2002 7:21AM

Braddick, you have way to much time on your hands!!

That cracked me up!!

In response, I would say shacking up with PCGS is wrong, (living with cracked out reg coins) Get married (do not crack out coins) and quit messing around. If you need to quit your job to stay home with your slabbed PCGS coins then do it. You might get a free t shirt.

Tbig

braddick · January 24, 2002 8:16AM

Braddick, you know all the answers. Thanks FF, but not all of them. For example, How many Angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?

Tbig, I'll take the too much time on my hands as true. I appreciate you not noticing the Dr. Laura reference. I'd have a much more difficult time explaining why I listen to her.

I too agree with Dragon (and others), once the coin is out of the PCGS holder it is no longer a PCGS coin (all warranties to grade are lost) and thus should no longer be a participant in a PCGS sponsored Registry.

Now Tad, We both have our goals. Yours is to see that PCGS finally acknowledges labels the type I, II, and III variety 1972-P Ikes (You were successful with the 1979 SBA afterall!). Mine is they begin to list PO01- VG08 coins in the Pop Reports.

khayse · January 24, 2002 10:06AM

I'm more into the spirit of the law, not the letter.
So I wouldn't have a problem if someone broke their coins
out of their slabs. They know that the coin was in the slab
and achieved a certain grade. Truth over proof.

Ruining a coin in or out of the slab is the same. It's
destroyed and no longer belongs in the set.

I dunno what I think on the lost thing. I've lost things for
years and then found them again. What's the rule on declaring
lost people dead? 5 years, 10? I'd go with whatever that is.
So if you can't find a coin for five years I would remove it.

-Keith H
ps I'm just about to join you trying to get PCGS to recognize the
Ike 72 varieties. As soon as I upgrade my type 2 in 64 to 65.

dbldie55 · January 24, 2002 11:44AM

So what do these registry sets consist of again? I only have one VG-10 coin listed in one set, which is sure to keep it at the bottom. Are you saying that I should remove this set as I took the coin out of the holder to place in my Dansco? I would bet that it would grade the same if I sent it back in.

Do you think with that small rim ding, and the small dark area by the S of PLURIBUS, that I could not show that this coin out of the holder is the same one? And this scan is half size.

madmike · January 24, 2002 2:55PM

Hi Dr. Braddick

I'd like to start out by saying "I am my coin's Dad"

If the coins are no longer in their holder, how can you prove they are the coins that belong with the inserts? They do seal them up together for a purpose. (The old method of drilling a hole in the coin and attaching the grading certificate to it - keyring style - just wasn't cutting it..!

)

Really though, I think if you have a collection of PCGS graded coins (a la Reg. Set) that once they have been liberated from their plastic confinment, they cease to be PCGS graded coins.

madmike

braddick · January 24, 2002 5:06PM

Madmike: Right. On both counts. "Dr. Braddick". I like. I guess that's way better than, "Coin Dr. Braddick".

perfectstrike · January 24, 2002 10:41PM

I've got a different take on this. In some cases, I believe, PCGS is only renting you a label until you spend enough money and time complaining to convince them to grade a coin consistent with the grades on the others you've seen. I don't remove my coins from the registry while I crack and resubmit. Does anyone else?

David

Coin Finder · January 24, 2002 11:59PM

Nice coin DDdd!! I like it.

Tbig

Bcsican · January 25, 2002 6:07AM

Heres another problem that we entail, you put together the finest set. The set is complete at the time but the series is still being minted. If you sell the set and its number one can you and should you be able to add coins to the set?

If you are not able to add coins its in the top five its only a matter of time before its bumped off. The question is why should other sets be ranked higher when the grade points are lower?

braddick · January 25, 2002 7:44AM

Matt, it doesn't seem fair, but how could a collector continue to add to a set that has been sold and dispursed? When the weighing plays a roll with all sets you may see where an incomplete set with a higher grade average will rank higher than a complete set with an overall lower grade average.

dbldie55 · January 25, 2002 9:10AM

Matt, when you sold your set, I said you may end up regretting it. I bet your are, at least a little.

Now for your question. Two ways to look at it, one Braddick brought up with how can you add coins to a set that does not exist.

But, go and look at many of the Classic Mint State Sets that show the Eliasberg collection listed in the all time (these were never in holders, but that is a different subject). The Eliasberg did not have Mint State specimens from the Philadelphia mint for coins that were available in proof. PCGS has listed his sets with a star to indicate that if he was doing this collection with the Set Registry in mind, based on what type of material he collected, his set would be rated with the following number.

For your set, why can't they figure just what grade of current date coins you would collect and place a star and go from there? (this would be tough in the work involved, but it would seem fair)

Bcsican · January 25, 2002 8:54PM

I hate to admit it but I do agree, if we added coins to a set that was sold it would become a virtual set and we know they dont exist right?. So I conceed to whats right for the registry once the set is sold its sol, if you want to add coins to it it just wont work unless you still own the set.... Oh the registry dilemma, how well PCGS works us..

A 'Dr. Laura' type Moral/Ethical question:

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