MPL Survivors...raw/vs. slabbed

ambro51

We had done the math awhile back and I think came up with 37% slabbed by the big three. Now, even over the short period of a few weeks, several MPL/s have been up on ebay raw.

Now it seems to me that this should have been a 'priority coin' to have slabbed even from the anacs early days, just to authenticate if.

So where are all these raw coins coming from, and how many are there? How much higher than the 37% slabbed would the survivor MPL total census be? Over 50%?

Bochiman

There are still a lot of collectors out there who collect without slabs and will take someone else's word for what the coin is (until they are burned).
I can easily imagine some of these still being raw and in collections. Not everyone is on this board, or even the NGC board, nor know how to submit (nor believe they need to).

Also, it is probably a safe bet that some of these raw ones would NOT slab by the big guys and even get problem labels by the other guys. So, they are sold raw to try to get more $$$ than if listed as a slabbed problem coin.

ambro51

good points! 50% plus?

WaterSport

AND, a number are floating around as Unc examples because no one can tell the difference. 50%??? maybe.

WS

Steve

If you bought a RAW Lincoln as a Matte and the major TPG's would not slab the coin, what would YOU do with the coin? Steve

curly

Listen to Steve brother, he answered your question.

ahooka454

I have a question. If the tpg wont slab it, does it make it less than whats slabbed? Or just a lesser example. Theres a raw 11 on the bay, and I must say, its the nicest raw matte I have ever seen. I know I dont have the time in like some of you guys, but if its a matte, and a raw matte, is it not still a matte?


I know the plastic is alot when dealing with these coins, but what if we didnt have the slabs. Would we still be buying these?

curly

<< <i>I have a question. If the tpg wont slab it, does it make it less than whats slabbed? Or just a lesser example. Theres a raw 11 on the bay, and I must say, its the nicest raw matte I have ever seen. I know I dont have the time in like some of you guys, but if its a matte, and a raw matte, is it not still a matte?


I know the plastic is alot when dealing with these coins, but what if we didnt have the slabs. Would we still be buying these? >>



I think if you remove the TPGs then MPLs will go back to the back row where they were for decades. TPGs give the buyer some sense of security.

I would think the better way to snag raw MPLs is to get all the information you can and study up, study slabbed ones and then hit the small shows and see if you can snag a raw one there.

ahooka454

I haer you. I was just curious. I really like the thought of cherrypicking a 09vdb marked as a circ strike. I know it may be very far fetched, but man it would be fun.

GRANDAM

OK, I'm not really a "Penny Guy" but some of these are really cool!!!

Could someone define exactly what a "MPL" is??? I know it stands for Matte Proof Lincoln but what years are they defined as and how are they labeled on the PCGS Holder. Do they just say "PR" or are they defined as a Matte Proof on the label? Are there regular Proofs for the same years that the Matte Proof's were issued?

Thanks, GrandAm

Updated: THANKS for the explanation ambro51

ambro51

If you wanted a Proof Lincoln cent from the mint from 1909 to 1916, you got a coin with a Matte surface. This was also true with buffalo nickels from 1913 to 1916. The mint was confronted with a design change on both coins that had fields that were not flat. The mint was not able using its equipment of the day to polish these fields, so they used a French technique of sandblasting the entire die, which gave the coin a soft, grainy appearance that varied year to year and coin to coin. It was different from all proofs prior or since.('cept for some golds)

PCGS dosent note Matte, just PR, matte is strictly a term to denote this type of proof among collectors.

No, matte proof lincolns were made only from 1909 to 1916, there are no variants to brilliant surface.

Brilliant proofs began in 1936 and continue to this day.

lasvegasteddy

that 11' matty on ebay is one of our members here who has class matty's...maybe dave will answer any concerns herein on it but it looks good to go to me cept i just bought one from brian that i'm still droolin over

Steve

Besides the obvious things a proof coin looks like, strong images, sharp edges, not rounded, thicker than business strikes, the matte proof lincoln cent for each of the 9 dates has specific diagnostics that the third party graders look for. Many early Lincoln business strikes were well struck and could seem to be matte proofs. If you encounter a RAW Lincoln that is being sold as a Matte proof your first question to the seller should be WHY isn't this coin in a PCGS, NGC or older ANACS slab? There is a REASON the seller does not have it in a slab. After you are satisfied and understand why the seller has not slabbed it, you should check for the diagnostics. There are books that describe each one. If you buy a so called matte proof lincoln cent at a "bargin" price, well you figure out if you got a bargin when you try to sell it. Educate yourself before buying Matte proof Lincoln cents. Personally, since I'm not that expert, I would NEVER consider spending $100 or more for a supposed Matte proof Lincoln that was NOT in a PCGS or NGC slab. JMHO. Steve

lasvegasteddy

last note on that 11'...you will see strong bid on it as cohodk (the seller) is one of the noteworthy "matty-peeps" i've come to understand from these boards...i'd go a quarter on that and wouldn't even be surprized if brian doesn't win it...;-)

robec

<< <i>last note on that 11'...you will see strong bid on it as cohodk (the seller) is one of the noteworthy "matty-peeps" i've come to understand from these boards...i'd go a quarter on that and wouldn't even be surprized if brian doesn't win it...;-) >>



You are right on the button. As soon as I saw who the seller was, all doubts of authenticity and quality were erased. I am, however, a little puzzled as to why it is not in a holder.

WaterSport

If I am correct, he has more than one MPL NOT in plastic! He like them both ways.

WS

ambro51

This booklet,
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Matte-Proof-Lincoln-Cents-1909-1917_W0QQitemZ140208419499QQihZ004QQcategoryZ530QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Usually runs on ebay. While I will not comment on the price/shipping I will say it is a reprint from the ANA and includes much data on matte proof diagnostics with very clear pictures. Within one of the CU forums there is a thread with a link to these diagnostics online also.

Some diagnostics are visible easily on MS coins but may be difficult to detect on questionable/cleaned examples. 20X magnification is almost essential, photos dont seem to show these features as well as a loupe and movement of the coin in relation to the light source to bring certain angles into play.

If anyone has any other references avaliable that are not in common availability, please post a source as all information on these coins is valuable to potential buyers.

Steve

<< <i>This booklet,
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Matte-Proof-Lincoln-Cents-1909-1917_W0QQitemZ140208419499QQihZ004QQcategoryZ530QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If anyone has any other references avaliable that are not in common availability, please post a source as all information on these coins is valuable to potential buyers. >>



The Albrecht pamphlet on Lincoln Matte Proof cents from 1983 is the most definative one I know of. There are some additional diagnostics reported by Kevin Flynn in his 1996 book but they are not supported and Flynn told me he "can't find the pictures" to support them. I believe that the major TPG use Albrechts comments to support their authenticity. Steve

DMWJR

I have two 1913's raw. I also have a 90 no s raw, that keeps Steve awake at night!

Steve

<< <i>I have two 1913's raw. I also have a 90 no s raw, that keeps Steve awake at night! >>



Doug,
I can understand the two 1913's RAW especially if they are nicely toned and PCGS can't decide between NT and AT. But what is the reason for keeping a 1990 no s RAW unless it doesn't have the key diagnostic near the VDB at 7 o'clock at the rim OR it is just a beautiful
business strike?
Steve

ambro51

The quality of photographs now helps too.

TomB

I think the internet and the availability of images of extremely toned matte proof Lincolns have done as much to pump up the series to the "casual" matte proof collector as has the existance of the TPGs. The diagnostics for these coins were known before the advent of PCGS and NGC and the Numismatist published a pair of booklets in the 1980s dedicated to counterfeit detection and matte proof diagnostics. These booklets had been available through Stack's for years at about $15 each and still pop up on ebay at times. For anyone who is serious about these coins, the diagnostics are fairly clear and a TPG would be needed only for the same reasons that a TPG would be needed for other coinage issues such as DMPL Morgans or others.

ambro51

TPG helps a lot with these coins since they DO have the ability to deeply tone, which has been the subject of cleaning in years gone past.