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1911 MPL cent closeups of EDS vs LDS

In this post I will show 2 closeups of the 1911 MPL cent obverse. (Top) specimen is the early die state coin not showing the diegouge by the G in GOD. The other specimen (bottom) is of the "latest" diestate 1911 I have handled. I can say this because of two factors. Notice the diegouge is very weak on this specimen which would indicate a later production than coins that have a bolder die gouge. The clincher is this, but you have to take my word on this. This late die specimen is the only coin I have handled that has the die break line on the reverse near the "O" in one cent. So this specimen was made just before die failure and was one of the last specimens off the die, therefore a very late die state.

These images are trueview blowups and I think the granularity stands out boldly on the EDS specimen vs this very LDS specimen.

early die state
image


very late die state.
image
Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.

Comments

  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think what Im looking for here is not die markers like the chip, but rather a close scrutiny of the grains themselves, to see if they repeat on the coins. We need a shot of the same year coin on a few different the same quality and die state as the top picture. I tried to see any grain patterns on those two coins, but cant see any. If the die is blasted, the grain patterns must repeat exactly.

    I have that same 11BN you posted ;-) so my shot of that doesnt help but I see a 'dot' below the G O exactly midway between and slightly below letter level. I see that same on the top photo.

    BTW thats a great educational shot on just how defined the rim should be on a matte
  • BWRCBWRC Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭
    Most likely there was only one obverse die used to produce the 1911 MPL cent. What these two images show me is that if the same die struck both of these coins, the top coin is a very early die state coin and the bottom coin a very late die state coin. You can see how grainy the top coin is especially in the fields and the bottom coin looks very smoothed out in the fields with basically no granular features present. This would seem to prove that the granularity of MPL cents is created when the coins are struck and not some after minting process.

    I thought that was the original question of the earlier post? "Let Us Try and Determine HOW Matte Proofs Were Made"?

    Anyway, just wanted to clarify this a bit.image

    I see what you mean by matching granular patterns but that could be quite a task for a couple of reasons. You will need EDS specimens which are not encountered as much as the LDS coins. Also, toning on the coins can mask small details you would want to see for a match. The images are also going to have to be a lot more close up than what I have provided. I will leave the next stage for the guys with the cameras that attach to 45X scopes. I do believe you could find matching granular patterns if you found untoned or lightly toned examples that were both early die states and struck within a few hundred coins of each other. JMO

    The reason I believe there is one MPL obverse die is that all 1911 MPL cents I have examined have these die markers present on the obverse.

    image
    Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,313 ✭✭✭
    Brian,
    Leonard Albrecht's diagnostics from his 1983 pamphlet support your point about only ONE die for the 1911 Matte Proof. He describes and shows pictures of two obverses and two reverses, but states that the second could be later die states of the SAME original die. Steveimage

    P.S. My 1911 has the die gouge very evident and probably is the late stage of the die.
  • robecrobec Posts: 6,581 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here is a link to a diagnostic report on the 1911.


    Link
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