I think I just won an 1888 O "hotlips" Vam-4

relicsncoins

Unfortunately I think the obverse has been cleaned. I'm hoping it's just a photo thing. Even if it has, it's still a cool VAM. What do you think is it a Vam-4? And it if hasn't been cleaned, what would it grade?

Hotlips?

LeeBone

Tough photos, but it looks like a Vam 4 to me too.

It does look cleaned though.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

Yes, cleaned.

I think you overpaid .

coindeuce

It's a VAM 4, but in G-4 to G-6 $40 is all the money.

direwolf1972

I agree hot lips. A good starter coin till you can upgrade.

Rampage

Yup, 100% Hot Lips. Congratulations on the purchase.

Deadhorse

You know, back before VAMs were as big as they now are, I traded a hot lips in an MS65 PCGS slab along with another coin that I have forgotten for a '50 Proof set that contained a Franklin and Washington that were clearly Cams. They are now slabbed at 65 CAM on the Frankie and 67 DCAM on the Washington.

So.......... how did I do?

I thought at the time I did great, but it seems like that hot lips in such a high grade has really become valuable and apparently it's quite rare. At the time I had no idea that being a hot lips in that grade meant so much. I knew it was a hot lips, but didn't know it's true value. Did I screw up?

Thanks, you can rip me if you want to, I did it around 5 years ago, so it won't hurt if you guys tell me I screwed the pooch.

coindeuce

<< <i>You know, back before VAMs were as big as they now are, I traded a hot lips in an MS65 PCGS slab along with another coin that I have forgotten for a '50 Proof set that contained a Franklin and Washington that were clearly Cams. They are now slabbed at 65 CAM on the Frankie and 67 DCAM on the Washington.

So.......... how did I do?

I thought at the time I did great, but it seems like that hot lips in such a high grade has really become valuable and apparently it's quite rare. At the time I had no idea that being a hot lips in that grade meant so much. I knew it was a hot lips, but didn't know it's true value. Did I screw up?

Thanks, you can rip me if you want to, I did it around 5 years ago, so it won't hurt if you guys tell me I screwed the pooch. >>



DeadHorse you need to seek counselling, or find that coin. Even 5 years ago that coin would have been a $10K monster!! The '88-O "Hot Lips" in a PCGS-65 holder would easily command $25,000+ from Registry collectors today. The 2008 VAMView Retail price index places a value of $25,000 for a PCGS MS-61, which indicates that there has been a trade of an unattributed PCGS certified example in the grade.
VamWorld '88-O price history here

PCGS No Date Denom Variety Desig
133919 1888-O $1 VAM 4 Hot Lips MS
VG F VF 40 45 50 53 55 58 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 Total:
16 12 35 13 21 9 12 20 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 149
As one can clearly see, no Mint State examples currently attributed VAM 4 by PCGS!!

Deadhorse

<< <i>

<< <i>You know, back before VAMs were as big as they now are, I traded a hot lips in an MS65 PCGS slab along with another coin that I have forgotten for a '50 Proof set that contained a Franklin and Washington that were clearly Cams. They are now slabbed at 65 CAM on the Frankie and 67 DCAM on the Washington.

So.......... how did I do?

I thought at the time I did great, but it seems like that hot lips in such a high grade has really become valuable and apparently it's quite rare. At the time I had no idea that being a hot lips in that grade meant so much. I knew it was a hot lips, but didn't know it's true value. Did I screw up?

Thanks, you can rip me if you want to, I did it around 5 years ago, so it won't hurt if you guys tell me I screwed the pooch. >>



DeadHorse you need to seek counselling, or find that coin. Even 5 years ago that coin would have been a $10K monster!! The '88-O "Hot Lips" in a PCGS-65 holder would easily command $20,000+ from Registry collectors today.
VamWorld '88-O price history here
current PCGS pop. report for '88-O VAM 4 >>



Well that was worse than I was expecting........... I don't know where it went. It was dealer in Dallas down here in Houston for a show. No wonder he was so easy to work with on that fine '50 proof set. All I saw was early CAM proofs and I really didn't value that 88-0 that much. So it was a hot lips, I just didn't really care. I didn't know.

Knowledge is power and I had none at the time. I can't feel bad, I've been fortunate in other areas, but I honestly had no idea. Back then the Greysheet didn't list hotlips, only an 88-0 in the grade. I walked away thinking I had cherry picked the guy. In truth he ripped me worse than I've ever been ripped. I've been ripped, but you just put that deal so far on the top of the list that I doubt I'll ever come close to screwing up that bad, even if I tried.

Lord knows, I wish I had it now, I'd put it up on the BST and have a bit of an auction. I thought I'd had made some bad deals before. Thanks for making them seem like like little bumps in the road. He'll be back this fall, I'll pay him a visit, shake his hand and congratulate him. If you're going to get reamed, you may as well do it up in style.



** Edit** I bought the coin in the slab for $95 from another local guy a year or so before, it had some nice toning, a bit of a crescent rainbow and that's the only reason I even bought it. You know, I don't feel that bad, I'll just file it away for future reference as the worst deal I ever made by a factor of 100.

OK, now you all know I'm an idiot. I think that puts me in the majority around here as having screwed up a deal along the way. Mine was just a supercalifragilistic f-up!!!!!

coindeuce

The least that the dealer could do is throw you a bone. OUCH!!

Deadhorse

<< <i>

<< <i>You know, back before VAMs were as big as they now are, I traded a hot lips in an MS65 PCGS slab along with another coin that I have forgotten for a '50 Proof set that contained a Franklin and Washington that were clearly Cams. They are now slabbed at 65 CAM on the Frankie and 67 DCAM on the Washington.

So.......... how did I do?

I thought at the time I did great, but it seems like that hot lips in such a high grade has really become valuable and apparently it's quite rare. At the time I had no idea that being a hot lips in that grade meant so much. I knew it was a hot lips, but didn't know it's true value. Did I screw up?

Thanks, you can rip me if you want to, I did it around 5 years ago, so it won't hurt if you guys tell me I screwed the pooch. >>



DeadHorse you need to seek counselling, or find that coin. Even 5 years ago that coin would have been a $10K monster!! The '88-O "Hot Lips" in a PCGS-65 holder would easily command $25,000+ from Registry collectors today. The 2008 VAMView Retail price index places a value of $25,000 for a PCGS MS-61, which indicates that there has been a trade of an unattributed PCGS certified example in the grade.
VamWorld '88-O price history here


PCGS No Date Denom Variety Desig
133919 1888-O $1 VAM 4 Hot Lips MS
VG F VF 40 45 50 53 55 58 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 Total:
16 12 35 13 21 9 12 20 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 149
As one can clearly see, no Mint State examples currently attributed VAM 4 by PCGS!!
>>




No, this was on older slab and it wasn't attributed at all, it was only labeled as an 88-0 and MS-65.


I'm sure it wouldn't appear in the pop report as a Hot Lips or a VAM, though it clearly was, I knew it, other dealers that day knew it immediately. It was an older PCGS slab with the green label. Not a rattler, but a green label.


*edited for spelling.

Deadhorse

This is already bad enough.

Please don't rub my face in the gravel anymore.

Coxe

DH -- If you had a Hot Lips in a PCGS 65 holder, it would clearly be the finest known by a long margin. It would also have to be in some stable collection to be this quiet for this long. A mint state one was considered unknown until not many years ago. Could it have been a a strike doubled obverse (though the Morgans usually have this on the reverse as the hammer die was the opposite relative to the Peace series), or a double struck planchet error?

Deadhorse

<< <i>DH -- If you had a Hot Lips in a PCGS 65 holder, it would clearly be the finest known by a long margin. It would also have to be in some stable collection to be this quiet for this long. A mint state one was considered unknown until not many years ago. Could it have been a a strike doubled obverse (though the Morgans usually have this on the reverse as the hammer die was the opposite relative to the Peace series), or a double struck planchet error? >>



I honestly don't know. Like I said, I bought it 6-7 years ago from another local guy and I bought it because of the rainbow crescent.

I'm sure the pop report does list 88-0 Morgans in MS 65, and that was the only thing on the slab label.

I didn't even know it was a hot lips till it was pointed out to me and I didn't think that meant all that much.

Remember, this was around 6 years ago. I've since learned they are quite rare and avoided telling this tale for sometime, but I have wondered just how bad I actually got reamed. It looks like it was a magnanimous ream.

I think I need to visit the commode.

Coxe

Well DH, assuming it was a Hot Lips in PCGS MS65, you let a HUGE opportunity coin slip away. That VAM is among an elite few that are universally known and loved. That particular VAM is extremely elusive in uncirculated condition. It is, otherwise, unknown anywhere near gem. To say you could have named you price and likely gotten it from one of a few strong budgeted afficianados is not far-fetched. Might not get six figures, but it could get a lot of mileage up the five figure highway. A rainbow crescent, that you bring up, would seal it. It is a book plate, if not book cover, coin.

I am sure I am joined by many VAM experts in skepticism that it was a Hot Lips. However, since we know about Leroy Van Allen's Hot Lips DMPL (not close to gem from what I understand though), you just never really know.

Deadhorse

I'm going to bed.

You guys can ream me for my stupidity through the rest of the night and I'll check in tomorrow.

I know I messed up bad, I just had no idea how bad.

While this guy was a dealer, he was also a collector. He knew it was a hot Lips and that's why he was so easy to trade with. I thought I'd cherry picked a marvelous proof set with an $800 price tag.

Sh*t happens. I can't feel that bad as it was 5+ years ago.

On second thought, it may have been MS64, but I'm pretty sure it was a 65. I can check my old spread sheets tomorrow and be certain.

OK, I just checked, it was an MS 65 88-0 Morgan, back then I didn't know about VAMs and the label didn't indicate anything other than 88-0, MS65.

I need a drink, or three.

Deadhorse

<< <i>Well DH, assuming it was a Hot Lips in PCGS MS65, you let a HUGE opportunity coin slip away. That VAM is among an elite few that are universally known and loved. That particular VAM is extremely elusive in uncirculated condition. It is, otherwise, unknown anywhere near gem. To say you could have named you price and likely gotten it from one of a few strong budgeted afficianados is not far-fetched. Might not get six figures, but it could get a lot of mileage up the five figure highway. A rainbow crescent, that you bring up, would seal it. It is a book plate, if not book cover, coin.

I am sure I am joined by many VAM experts is skepticism that it was a Hot Lips. However, since we know about Leroy Van Allen's Hot Lips DMPL (not close to gem from what I understand though), you just never really know. >>



Well, I think most people around here know I don't BS. It was a Hot Lips, it was an outstanding example, something I now know, but had no clue back then.

OK, I made the biggest blunder of the week, or the month. Anyway, it's done and over with long ago. I never even thought about it till I began reading the threads on VAMs. It went to Dallas, that's all I can say. Check the pop reports and I'm certain you will find at least one 88-0 graded and slabbed by PCGS as MS65 back in the green label days.

I wanted to know how badly I did, I didn't want to hear this. Still, It's OK, you just move on and now I've got a tale that shows my stupidity times 100 squared.

I think I need to stick to bullion. I'm going to have a few drinks, got fresh limes on my trees and a 16 ounce gin and tonic sounds about right now.

BlindedByEgo

My condolences, DH

Deadhorse

<< <i>My condolences, DH >>



I knew I f'ed up after I saw the VAMs being discussed here. I just had no idea how bad.

I'm pouring down a a 24 ounce gin and tonic and I'm about to be unable to type, tipe, teype, etc.

Thankfully the GF is asleep downstairs and i haven't screamed yet.

Maybe I''l go out and grab another Lime and pour my self andother 5 ounces of gin.

Is there a cave or a rock I cane hide under somewhere on tis board??

I'm out a heere.

G'night all.

Thanks for being kind to me for screwing up sooo badly. knowlege is power I was stuupid back then when it cam to vams. All I thought I had was a decent toner. I guess I should have suspected somrthing when the dealer was so eager to make that trade for his nicest proof set in the case.

Thanks again, g'nite.

Now you all can feel good that you've never made such an incredeble screwup. I get award for the week............OK??

Tanks again.

Wolf359

I seriously doubt there's a Hot Lips running around in an unattributed MS65 PCGS holder guys, get real. Even 5-6 years ago, that would have been a 5 figure coin and the dealer
would have flipped it. Chances are the dealer made an error, and DH did pick him.

coindeuce

<< <i>I seriously doubt there's a Hot Lips running around in an unattributed MS65 PCGS holder guys, get real. Even 5-6 years ago, that would have been a 5 figure coin and the dealer
would have flipped it. Chances are the dealer made an error, and DH did pick him. >>



Jack, thanks for exercising that wonderful privilege of American liberty, the right to freedom of expression. I had the same opinion about some other condition rarity VAM's myself until I witnessed them first hand and in a few cases became privileged to own them, a la 1878 8TF VAM 5 PCGS MS-65(pop.1, 0 higher), 1878 8TF VAM 14.18 PCGS MS-64 DMPL(pop.1, 0 higher), 1899-o VAM 6 NGC-66 (pop. 1, 0 higher) all of which were unattributed in the holders at one time. And there does seem to be a very strong propensity among VAM collectors to seek that almighty fame of making discoveries of new VAM's or conditional rarities, but you are more than welcome to express the skepticism or whatever it is you want to label it as.

mattniss

Is the VAMWorld price guide pretty accurate today on graded and attributed VAM-4's? The prices there are from 2004 - early 2007. Would you think they have gone up/down/stayed the same since then?

Coxe

The prices are roughly about right. Some of the XF and AU ones can vary considerably, even in PCGS plastic in identical grades. But that is evident even from those numbers. I have seen some seel at incrementally lower numbers and then a surprise come out of an auction to bring it back up.

mattniss

So, the prices are actually more stable in lower grades? I'm just trying to figure out what prices I should look for in roughly a VF-30 or so.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>

<< <i>I seriously doubt there's a Hot Lips running around in an unattributed MS65 PCGS holder guys, get real. Even 5-6 years ago, that would have been a 5 figure coin and the dealer
would have flipped it. Chances are the dealer made an error, and DH did pick him. >>



Jack, thanks for exercising that wonderful privilege of American liberty, the right to freedom of expression. I had the same opinion about some other condition rarity VAM's myself until I witnessed them first hand and in a few cases became privileged to own them, a la 1878 8TF VAM 5 PCGS MS-65(pop.1, 0 higher), 1878 8TF VAM 14.18 PCGS MS-64 DMPL(pop.1, 0 higher), 1899-o VAM 6 NGC-66 (pop. 1, 0 higher) all of which were unattributed in the holders at one time. And there does seem to be a very strong propensity among VAM collectors to seek that almighty fame of making discoveries of new VAM's or conditional rarities, but you are more than welcome to express the skepticism or whatever it is you want to label it as. >>



The '88-O Hot Lips isn't like the VAMs were the identifiers are tiny. It's a boldly obvious variety that really can't be missed if you actually take a few seconds to look at the coin.

I do not believe DeadHorse's story.

Coxe

VF30 happens to be the grade I have my two in. (One is PCGS and one is NGC.) PCGS is in the $250 to $350 range and NGC is in the $150-$200 range. Doesn't really make sense because the top 4 TPGs are quite consistent in their grading of circulated Morgans. However, some little problems are tolerated some of the time more by some TPGs than others. Doesn't mean a problem is the reason why it is not in PCGS plastic though. In the case of my pair, the NGC actually has noticeably more detail than the PCGS. Probably would get 35, maybe even 40 on a particularly good day, but why throw another $50 (economy+variety+postage) at a coin in the $200-$400 value range?

coinkat

Not to be another non-believer... but the Hot Lips variety is not new. I recall seeing adds for them in the 1970's in Coinage. If one existed in 65, the VAM community would know about it. If a PCGS 65 did exist, I think it would be a six figure coin.

I still own some in EF45... never managed to get one into an AU holder at any service.

Deadhorse

<< <i>I do not believe DeadHorse's story. >>



Thanks for calling me a liar!

Makes my day so much better. I held off telling that story for years just because of people like you. You think I'm happy about this? It was the worst single coin mistake I've ever made by a long shot.

BTW, there were a couple of witnesses to the trade and they will back me up on it. One is a long time B&M owner here in town. His table was just across the aisle that day. Even he wasn't into VAMs and he's been in business over 30 years now. I showed him the proof set and he thought it was about as nice a '50 set as he'd seen. It was after that that I made the trade. He knew it was a hot Lips also. You can't miss that one.

I didn't know squat about VAMs back then, they weren't a big item at all in those days, and I know very little about them even today.

While you're at it, go ahead and block me from all your auctions, not that I would ever bid on them now anyway.

You'd never want to deal with such an untrustworthy person like me, even if I do have 100% positive feedback on 800 transactions on the Bay and too many to count with other board members and I spend over 100K+ buying and selling coins annually and have done so for many years.

You might consider pulling that log from your golden eye.

Have a nice day.

**Edit** I'll PM you my eBay account name so you can block me. Please do so ASAP.

messydesk

<< <i>Mine was just a supercalifragilistic f-up!!!!! >>


Worse. That was so far beyond a supercalifragilistic f-up that it would take the light from supercalifragilistic f-up a million years to reach you. (Just felt like piling on. )

Coxe

I think it was wrong to suggest DH lied. The coin could have also been doublestruck (still worth a LOT) or been mechanically doubled. It also could have been a VAM-4. Hard to believe it would have escaped us before and after that point in time, but anything's possible. Sure would like to see the coin. As a VAM-4, the VAM community would be thrilled by its existence. As a doublestrike, the error folks would be crazy for it. As a mechanically doubled obverse, DH would rest a lot better. And with a rainbow crescent? There's a big wow. Don't see enough nice gem toners for that date anyway.

Deadhorse

<< <i>I think it was wrong to suggest DH lied. The coin could have also been doublestruck (still worth a LOT) or been mechanically doubled. It also could have been a VAM-4. Hard to believe it would have escaped us before and after that point in time, but anything's possible. Sure would like to see the coin. As a VAM-4, the VAM community would be thrilled by its existence. As a doublestrike, the error folks would be crazy for it. As a mechanically doubled obverse, DH would rest a lot better. And with a rainbow crescent? There's a big wow. Don't see enough nice gem toners for that date anyway. >>



Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if they are rude in expressing it.

I've PM'd golden eye with my ebay account name and asked him to block me.

It's a first for me, it will probably be the last. This board has been good to me, I've completed hundreds of transactions with board members over the years and never had a single problem.

Just let it rest. I only wanted to know just how badly I screwed up, turns out it was worse than I ever imagined.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>

<< <i>I think it was wrong to suggest DH lied. The coin could have also been doublestruck (still worth a LOT) or been mechanically doubled. It also could have been a VAM-4. Hard to believe it would have escaped us before and after that point in time, but anything's possible. Sure would like to see the coin. As a VAM-4, the VAM community would be thrilled by its existence. As a doublestrike, the error folks would be crazy for it. As a mechanically doubled obverse, DH would rest a lot better. And with a rainbow crescent? There's a big wow. Don't see enough nice gem toners for that date anyway. >>



Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if they are rude in expressing it.

I've PM'd golden eye with my ebay account name and asked him to block me.

It's a first for me, it will probably be the last. This board has been good to me, I've completed hundreds of transactions with board members over the years and never had a single problem.

Just let it rest. I only wanted to know just how badly I screwed up, turns out it was worse than I ever imagined. >>



I don't believe I was particularly rude. I simply stated that I didn't believe you. You must admit, it's a rather easy story to not believe.

Oh, and I mustn't forget the fact that the highest graded Hot Lips at both PCGS and NGC is an MS61. That morsel of information makes the story a little bit harder to believe as well.

relicsncoins

Talk about a post hijacking.

sweetwilliet

The story is not that far-fetched. I saw an unattributed tailbar on ebay in ms64 on the old green holder, fortunately for the seller someone emailed him prior to the auctions end and he added it to the description. I still peruse ebay for unattributed hot lips, tailbars, etc... in older holders, before they gave out those designations, hoping to score "the big one". When I find that ms65 hot lips, I'll let you know, and I may even post a pic.