I think it's interesting how everyone views all of this in different ways.
Personally, I don't think of that card as getting a 2 point grade jump. I think of it more as just a solid PSA 7 that was undergraded once, and then overgraded once ... thus being more of a one point grade swing on each end of the scale.
I agree that currently there isn't much of a difference between a very strong 6 and a very weak 8. I've always thought that was one of the basic problems with the standard 10 point scale, and I'm hoping that the new half grades might help solve that problem. Hopefully under the new system, that card will only swing from a 6.5 to a 7.5 ... which is probably a lot closer to the way it should be.
I always thought PSA would make the switch someday, so this didn't surprise me too much. I do, however, think they're missing the boat on basic customer relations, by not offering some super cheap regrading specials to help soften the blow.
They decided to change the rules of the game midstream, and no matter how you like it, or look at it ... it's going to cost every collector more money (either by resubmitting, or by not resubmitting and loosing some value) ....
... except for Cardbender. I've seen all 3,000 of his slabbed cards, and they're all weak for the grade.
Seriously though, PSA should throw out some major bones for the next 6 months, to help lessen the financial impact this decision is going to have on their loyal customers.
<< <i>well Jason, here's a common sense one for starters. Have you ever sent one of these cards that you have got an incredible bump (two or more grades) and sent it back to them or at least let Joe know what happened and how such wide spreads on the cards coming back is a major issue and hurts the marketplace as a whole. I can go on and on if you wish, especially with the 15+ years I have experienced in the coin business(which is light years ahead of the sportscards market and has already been there,done that with all the issues that will be upcoming in the sportscard grading business.) That is where I'm coming from.
Of all people here, you have apparently been appointed the voice of PSA football for these boards, and actively talk with the Registry people at PSA. I say, extend yourself if you are this voice and talk with Joe about these types of issues, it would certainly come off as more valid than a couple of guys just calling in to customer service to complain about such things, and to be honest, would give PSA alot of insight about what the collectors in general are seeing in the graded marketplace. >>
First of all, I'm not an appointed anything by PSA. I speak my opinion based on my experience, that's it. I talk to Cosetta, BJ, Gayle all the Registry folks because I care about the football sets that I helped create and I try and ensure they are run how the masses (or at least those of us who post here) want them run.
I don't carry any more or less weight with Joe Orlando than you do. I don't have the huge complaint that you seem to have, so why would I call and complain? I understand the grading game. I'm still waiting to hear exactly HOW you propse the graders become more consistent? Since you are the coin expert, can you honestly say you could look at 20 random ungraded coins and predict within 2 points of where they will grade by PSA? I'd really like to see that, I would be impressed if you could go 100% on that. The reason it would be so tough is because GRADING IS SUBJECTIVE. Anyone who thinks it is an exact science is in the wrong hobby, PERIOD.
Jason >>
My huge complaint is you and others seem ok with reaping the profits from grading inconsistencies rather than complaining that they should be held to a higher standard than being within 2 grades, especially when they are working on a 10 point scale. Don't you think that is pathetic, or are you happier with the deals you get because of it? Not sure what your still waiting on how to make the graders more consistent, it was laid out pretty simple in one of my previous posts. The only chance a normal person has to influence the consistency is by talking with Joe, and having concrete examples of how the standards are wildly inconsistent and being able to back that up by having him send the card back in to the graders to discuss. Apparently your not interested in that, but in my opinion, that is one of the things that would be a great improvement to the sportscard community in general, how is not having a more accurate and consistent team of graders not a good thing again????
Anytime you want to take the challenge on the 20 coins, let me know, I will send you my address and will back it up with anything you require.
Based on the number of $5 grading specials they had in 2007, I've got to imagine they will have just as many if not more whenever they see a slow down in review submissions. I think it would have been great for them to announce an upcoming grading special the same time they released the news of the new half point system. Likely the reason they didn't do so is because it would have overwhelmed the grading dept even more than usual..
I can't imagine a scenario where PSA won't offer some type of grading special(s) in 2008 aimed at talking guys who are on the fence into resubbing their cards.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
My huge complaint is you and others seem ok with reaping the profits from grading inconsistencies rather than complaining that they should be held to a higher standard than being within 2 grades, especially when they are working on a 10 point scale. Don't you think that is pathetic, or are you happier with the deals you get because of it? Not sure what your still waiting on how to make the graders more consistent, it was laid out pretty simple in one of my previous posts. The only chance a normal person has to influence the consistency is by talking with Joe, and having concrete examples of how the standards are wildly inconsistent and being able to back that up by having him send the card back in to the graders to discuss. Apparently your not interested in that, but in my opinion, that is one of the things that would be a great improvement to the sportscard community in general, how is not having a more accurate and consistent team of graders not a good thing again????
Anytime you want to take the challenge on the 20 coins, let me know, I will send you my address and will back it up with anything you require. >>
LOLOL..Hilarious...Sorry man, I don't know jack about coins except the ones in my pocket..lol..I'll have to take your word for it I guess..Are you as good at grading cards as you are coins? Maybe I could hire you on to show me what to look for..I'm clueless..
I just re-read all of your posts, and sorry I don't see any specifics on how exactly PSA or anyone else for that matter would be able to make card grading more consistent. I'm not looking for the generalization, I'd like to know specifically how do you make a fleet of PSA graders more consistent? They look over thousands of cards, probably every week. I'm sure they've all been trained. Even the senior graders or head guys, what more can you do when the PROCESS IS SUBJECTIVE??? I just don't get it..I must be stupid..Please explain, break it down for me step-by-step..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
This has been on the PSA site for at least 10 years..I don't understand where the disconnect is...Agree or disagree, but this is how they have always done business...
The Importance of Eye-Appeal and Subjectivity in Grading
Over the years, more and more collectors have come to understand the basic guidelines behind PSA grading. After grading for well over a decade, PSA grading standards have truly become the official standard for the most valuable cards in the hobby. That being said, there are a host of grading questions that arise and the one basic question that comes up the most has to do with eye-appeal and centering.
While it's true that a large part of grading is objective (locating print defects, staining, surface wrinkles, measuring centering, etc.), the other component of grading is somewhat subjective. The best way to define the subjective element is to do so by posing a question: What will the market accept for this particular issue?
Again, the vast majority of grading is applied with a basic, objective standard but no one can ignore the small (yet sometimes significant) subjective element. This issue will usually arise when centering and/or eye-appeal are in question. For example, while most cards fall clearly within the centering guidelines for a particular grade, some cards fall either just within or just outside the printed centering standards. The key point to remember is that the graders reserve the right, based on the strength or weakness of the eye-appeal, to make a judgment call on the grade of a particular card.
What does this mean exactly?
Well, take this example. Let's say you have a 1955 Topps Sandy Koufax rookie card that is right on the edge of the acceptable guidelines for centering in a particular grade. The 1955 Koufax card has a yellow background that tends to blend with the border of the card. In other words, the contrast isn't great so poor centering may not be much of an eyesore - the borders are not clearly defined. In this case, if the card exhibits extremely strong characteristics in other areas (color, corners, etc.), an exception may be made to allow an otherwise slightly off-center card to fall within an unqualified grade (no OC qualifier). This is a rare occurrence but it does happen.
On the other hand, there are cards that technically fall within the printed PSA Grading Standards that may be prevented from reaching a particular, unqualified grade because the eye-appeal becomes an issue. For example, a 1957 Topps Sandy Koufax card has great contrast between the white borders and the picture because the background is very dark. It is possible that a 1957 Topps Sandy Koufax, one that technically measures for a particular grade - let's say 70/30, may be prevented from reaching that unqualified grade because the market would view that card as off-center - based on eye-appeal issues. Again, this is a rare occurrence but it does happen from time to time when a judgment call has to be made on a card that pushes the limits for centering.
In conclusion, the issues discussed do not apply to the vast majority of cards that filter through the PSA grading process each day but this is an issue that needed some clarification in the marketplace. The bottom line is that there are times when a PSA grader must make a call on a card that falls on the line between two grades and that final determination is made based on experience, eye-appeal and market acceptability.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
all the standards that you pasted is just a fluff job and is standard practice to where they can point the crazy people who call up and don't know what they are looking at. Yes I am that good at coins, but coins are on a different level than cards.
I can assume by your non-response you are happier with buying the vastly undergraded cards and profiting off of them than worrying about the greater good for the card community and actively discussing this issue with PSA so all their graders are more in line together.
I will let you answer that question I have posed twice now before having to continue to explain the same thing you keep asking and I have answered all of your questions.
<< <i>all the standards that you pasted is just a fluff job and is standard practice to where they can point the crazy people who call up and don't know what they are looking at. Yes I am that good at coins, but coins are on a different level than cards.
I can assume by your non-response you are happier with buying the vastly undergraded cards and profiting off of them than worrying about the greater good for the card community and actively discussing this issue with PSA so all their graders are more in line together.
I will let you answer that question I have posed twice now before having to continue to explain the same thing you keep asking and I have answered all of your questions. >>
I already answered this as well...What EXACLY WOULD I CALL LPSA AND SAY????
Me: Hey Joe, you need to get your graders to be more consistent.
Joe: Good point jason, our guys evaluate 1,000 cards per week on average, all have been trained to PSA's grading standards, what would you suggest?
Me: I don't know, look at this I had a card grade PSA 7 one day, then PSA 6 the next day, and PSA 8 the 3rd day. Can't you do better?
Joe: Grading is subjective, how do we correct it Jason?
Me: I guess take more time on each card?
Joe: Then we grade less cards and the wait times go even longer. This is a for profit business.
Me: Hire more graders?
Joe: I thought you wanted consistency?
Me: We do, why can;t you just be perfect and grade every card like a computer. Every single 8 in the world should be an 8. Every single 6 should be a 6, there shouldn;t be any guess work!
Joe: You're joking right?
Me: Call drewsf, he seems to have some secret way of being more consistent but he won't tell me how, and seems to think you won;t listen to him.
Joe: Ahh, well he's a coin guy...
Me: That explains everything. Bye Joe.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
So we can assume you would rather prey on those who are losing alot of money by the inconsistent grading, or are you for doing things the right way and attempting to at least speak with a grader or Joe about what the collectors are seeing? Is that what your saying? Answer the question Jason.
No matter how you argue it, you have a better name to approach this subject but apparently you have no interest in doing so. All you have to do is be honest with Joe about what you are seeing in the marketplace and how it is hurting the PSA name and consistent grading within a point is paramount to the card community. Why can't you understand all you have to do is pick up the phone and do that like once a monthy and give him a collector's voice of what you are seeing and how the collectors are interpreting what's going on, you are better than anyone else here.
If your little satire of a phone conversation is how you really would talk on the phone and handle yourself, then you are right, your the wrong one to do this despite being in the best position to do so.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a be-all, end-all, 100% accurate grading system. While we give you the benefit of the doubt that you are, as you claim, an expert at coin grading and have seen more coins that we even thought were minted, you would be best served by accepting the fact that we're talking about grading two completely different mediums. Metal versus cardboard?
Understand that just because someone understands the "system" and has contact with those inside the "system," it it not a given that they have any say in correcting the "system." And who is to say that the "system" needs to be corrected? You? Why? Just because YOU don't agree with it? Just because you have YOUR opinon? That's all fine, but please read on.
While the bumbs highlighted in this thread are the result of legitimate resubmission and reevaluation (and the removal of a glue knot), these bumps are not as drastic as some seem to believe. Indulge me for a minute and consider while working with a full point scale, and given that grading is a subjective art, three graders see the same card as a stong EX-MT 6 (6.5), an average NM 7 (7.0) or even a very weak NM-MT 8 (7.5). Now, while the composite grade may be a NM 7, it is only a breadth of one full grade to justify the card receiving a PSA 6 or a PSA 8 (6.5 rounded down to 7.5 rounded up).
And anyone that want to claim that aesthetics and eye appeal are only grading cop outs need only look at a nicely centered EX-MT set in a binder versus a NM-MT set that pushes the limits of 80/20 centering.
There will ALWAYS be issues with grading ANY scale for as I said at the outset, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a be-all, end-all, 100% accurate grading system . . . especially when the human factor is involved.
the facts that are similar are this, on a friggin 10 point scale, if you can't do better than a one point spread, you are not a professional card grader and should either be told the difference, or fired. someone who can't grade within 2 points in the coin grading business doesn't last long if they can't adjust
It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a be-all, end-all, 100% accurate grading system. While we give you the benefit of the doubt that you are, as you claim, an expert at coin grading and have seen more coins that we even thought were minted, you would be best served by accepting the fact that we're talking about grading two completely different mediums. Metal versus cardboard?
Understand that just because someone understands the "system" and has contact with those inside the "system," it it not a given that they have any say in correcting the "system." And who is to say that the "system" needs to be corrected? You? Why? Just because YOU don't agree with it? Just because you have YOUR opinon? That's all fine, but please read on.
While the bumbs highlighted in this thread are the result of legitimate resubmission and reevaluation (and the removal of a glue knot), these bumps are not as drastic as some seem to believe. Indulge me for a minute and consider while working with a full point scale, and given that grading is a subjective art, three graders see the same card as a stong EX-MT 6 (6.5), an average NM 7 (7.0) or even a very weak NM-MT 8 (7.5). Now, while the composite grade may be a NM 7, it is only a breadth of one full grade to justify the card receiving a PSA 6 or a PSA 8 (6.5 rounded down to 7.5 rounded up).
And anyone that want to claim that aesthetics and eye appeal are only grading cop outs need only look at a nicely centered EX-MT set in a binder versus a NM-MT set that pushes the limits of 80/20 centering.
There will ALWAYS be issues with grading ANY scale for as I said at the outset, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a be-all, end-all, 100% accurate grading system . . . especially when the human factor is involved. >>
FINALLY a voice of reason and sanity...lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>So we can assume you would rather prey on those who are losing alot of money by the inconsistent grading, or are you for doing things the right way and attempting to at least speak with a grader or Joe about what the collectors are seeing? Is that what your saying? Answer the question Jason.
>>
Ok, I'll do this ONE MORE TIME for the slow crowd.
What plausible information would I be able to give the President of PSA? Hey, this card has 7 centering and it's in an 8 holder..hey this card has a 6 corner and its in an 8 holder. Hey this card has zero flaws and it's in an 8 holder. How does this help them fix not being consistent? I just don't get it..Showing it to Joe? OK, now you'll just get HIS opinion on the card..Show it to the head grader? Now you get HIS opinion on the card...No matter what, it's all opinion..THAT IS WHAT PSA DOES! A 3rd party opinion. if you can;t handle or don't agree with PSA's opinions STOP USING THE SERVICE....
How is it affecting the marketplace? Ask the PSA 7 1948 Leaf Bobby Layne, the PSA 9 1950 Tom Fears or the PSA 9 1964 Topps Bobby Bell that all ended on ebay last night.
Now its your turn..I want you to answer...HOW DOES PSA IMPROVE CONSISTENCY??????
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>So we can assume you would rather prey on those who are losing alot of money by the inconsistent grading, or are you for doing things the right way and attempting to at least speak with a grader or Joe about what the collectors are seeing? Is that what your saying? Answer the question Jason.
>>
Ok, I'll do this ONE MORE TIME for the slow crowd.
What plausible information would I be able to give the President of PSA? Hey, this card has 7 centering and it's in an 8 holder..hey this card has a 6 corner and its in an 8 holder. Hey this card has zero flaws and it's in an 8 holder. How does this help them fix not being consistent? I just don't get it..Showing it to Joe? OK, now you'll just get HIS opinion on the card..Show it to the head grader? Now you get HIS opinion on the card...No matter what, it's all opinion..THAT IS WHAT PSA DOES! A 3rd party opinion. if you can;t handle or don't agree with PSA's opinions STOP USING THE SERVICE....
How is it affecting the marketplace? Ask the PSA 7 1948 Leaf Bobby Layne, the PSA 9 1950 Tom Fears or the PSA 9 1964 Topps Bobby Bell that all ended on ebay last night.
Now its your turn..I want you to answer...HOW DOES PSA IMPROVE CONSISTENCY?????? >>
You really are that thickheaded huh. And you continue to try to run around the question I posed.
What don't you get Jason???? If you were concerned you would do as I have already said numerous times here. I will paste it again for you.
No matter how you argue it, you have a better name to approach this subject but apparently you have no interest in doing so. All you have to do is be honest with Joe about what you are seeing in the marketplace and how it is hurting the PSA name and consistent grading within a point is paramount to the card community. Why can't you understand all you have to do is pick up the phone and do that like once a monthy and give him a collector's voice of what you are seeing and how the collectors are interpreting what's going on, you are better than anyone else here.
Let me know what doesn't seep in this time and we can go forward from there.
Ok, you gave 3 examples of cards that ended with huge numbers last night, good for you. Now what about those who rely on PSA to get close to the accurate grade without becoming experts at grading(again for you, this does not include me or you or some people on the boards.) What about those people who rely on them and pay them good money to provide this service, and then they get back a card graded 6 that should be a 7 or 8 and within that tolerance. They sell the card to someone like you, taking a huge loss and you profit from it, and you don't see how that affects the marketplace? I ask, do you personally feel that a 3 point margin between a 6 and 8 is acceptable for trained professionals whom this is their only job?
<< <i>You really are that thickheaded huh. And you continue to try to run around the question I posed.
What don't you get Jason???? If you were concerned you would do as I have already said numerous times here. I will paste it again for you.
No matter how you argue it, you have a better name to approach this subject but apparently you have no interest in doing so. All you have to do is be honest with Joe about what you are seeing in the marketplace and how it is hurting the PSA name and consistent grading within a point is paramount to the card community. Why can't you understand all you have to do is pick up the phone and do that like once a monthy and give him a collector's voice of what you are seeing and how the collectors are interpreting what's going on, you are better than anyone else here.
Let me know what doesn't seep in this time and we can go forward from there.
Ok, you gave 3 examples of cards that ended with huge numbers last night, good for you. Now what about those who rely on PSA to get close to the accurate grade without becoming experts at grading(again for you, this does not include me or you or some people on the boards.) What about those people who rely on them and pay them good money to provide this service, and then they get back a card graded 6 that should be a 7 or 8 and within that tolerance. They sell the card to someone like you, taking a huge loss and you profit from it, and you don't see how that affects the marketplace? I ask, do you personally feel that a 3 point margin between a 6 and 8 is acceptable for trained professionals whom this is their only job? >>
I guess so drew..I must be an idiot...All you keep saying is the same thing..Tell them they are being inconsistent. I answered your question 20 times. I DO NOT HAVE A COMPLAINT WITH PSA. I understand that grading is a subjective process, and I also understand that based on the many many cards I have inspected myself that the difference between a high end PSA 6 and a low end PSA 8 simply is not as large as you are making it out to be.
You are the guy whining and complaining. Call Joe yourself, send him the scans, etc, etc. Like I said, all you're going to get is another opinion. If you don;t understand that is the service PSA offers that's on you.
As far as the collector's you speak of who sell undergraded cards and buy overgraded cards, it's a consumers market. You either educate yourself or the losses are on you.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> Now what about those who rely on PSA to get close to the accurate grade without becoming experts at grading(again for you, this does not include me or you or some people on the boards.) What about those people who rely on them and pay them good money to provide this service, and then they get back a card graded 6 that should be a 7 or 8 and within that tolerance. They sell the card to someone like you, taking a huge loss and you profit from it, and you don't see how that affects the marketplace? I ask, do you personally feel that a 3 point margin between a 6 and 8 is acceptable for trained professionals whom this is their only job? >>
Drew:
You are asking Jason this question and presenting a scenario under the assumption that PSA is erroneously grading cards, that pointing out such will have an impact, and that those that realize this snafu keep quiet because it affords them the opportunity to profit while "unsuspecting" collectors are being done monetary harm.
First, I've already explained that the swing from a PSA 6 to a PSA 8 can be actually the same as a one grade swing (albeit the realized price differential is certainly much larger) and to point at that as an example of erroneous or inconsistent grading is questionable. Second, exactly what impact will Jason's commentary on the situation have with regard to Joe or any of the graders? This is an art that is SUBJECTIVE!!! Hell, I was a senior grader, defined the half point scale, and given a borderline card, I can see it in one holder one day and another holder the next. Granted, it would only be a half point swing, but it is NOT an EXACT science as you seem to profess that it could and should be. And third, there will ALWAYS be those that take advantage of opportunity. Whether blatently outlandish or subliminally passive, our society has been built upon seizing financial opportunity. Have you ever bought ANYTHING that you felt was better than advertised? A coin that you felt was undergraded, perhaps? Or did you offer to pay more because you felt it was the right thing to do?
I realize that CU has an obligation as a third party service, but they also have an obligation to their shareholders.
Anyway, as long as grading is subjective and there is room for interpretation, there will be resubmissions, there will be bumps, and there will be grades that drop . . . YES, I said there will be grades that DROP! It's the nature of the beast and one that no matter how hard you, Jason, or I try, we will never be able to tame . . . only understand.
ok good, we have established you are not interested in being an advocate and don't care whether someone who you pass your collection off to gets screwed by a card being severely undergraded and not realizing a decent amount. I guess it's their problem and your gain.
And if you don't understand, which is why I have repeatedly told you over and over again, that you, being a voice(whether you admit or not, you are of PSA football for the collectors) that you can simply call and speak with Joe about issues your seeing so he can have some input from that side, then you really don't understand how things work.
<< <i> Now what about those who rely on PSA to get close to the accurate grade without becoming experts at grading(again for you, this does not include me or you or some people on the boards.) What about those people who rely on them and pay them good money to provide this service, and then they get back a card graded 6 that should be a 7 or 8 and within that tolerance. They sell the card to someone like you, taking a huge loss and you profit from it, and you don't see how that affects the marketplace? I ask, do you personally feel that a 3 point margin between a 6 and 8 is acceptable for trained professionals whom this is their only job? >>
Drew:
You are asking Jason this question and presenting a scenario under the assumption that PSA is erroneously grading cards, that pointing out such will have an impact, and that those that realize this snafu keep quiet because it affords them the opportunity to profit while "unsuspecting" collectors are being done monetary harm.
First, I've already explained that the swing from a PSA 6 to a PSA 8 can be actually the same as a one grade swing (albeit the realized price differential is certainly much larger) and to point at that as an example of erroneous or inconsistent grading is questionable. Second, exactly what impact will Jason's commentary on the situation have with regard to Joe or any of the graders? This is an art that is SUBJECTIVE!!! Hell, I was a senior grader, defined the half point scale, and given a borderline card, I can see it in one holder one day and another holder the next. Granted, it would only be a half point swing, but it is NOT an EXACT science as you seem to profess that it could and should be. And third, there will ALWAYS be those that take advantage of opportunity. Whether blatently outlandish or subliminally passive, our society has been built upon seizing financial opportunity. Have you ever bought ANYTHING that you felt was better than advertised? A coin that you felt was undergraded, perhaps? Or did you offer to pay more because you felt it was the right thing to do?
I realize that CU has an obligation as a third party service, but they also have an obligation to their shareholders.
Anyway, as long as grading is subjective and there is room for interpretation, there will be resubmissions, there will be bumps, and there will be grades that drop . . . YES, I said there will be grades that DROP! It's the nature of the beast and one that no matter how hard you, Jason, or I try, we will never be able to tame . . . only understand. >>
You honestly believe that a 6 to 8 is not erroneously grading a card?
I never said it was exact, in fact, it is indeed subjective. But for those who grade all day long, it is foolish to have people there if you can't grade a card within a certain range, and the examples provided here earlier are proof that there are at least one or more graders who are not at the same standard as the others.
Sure I have made alot of money buying coins that were not properly graded, but you know what, in every instance where there was a significant difference, I always gave more money back when I made that big profit to who I bought it from. Do you do that?
Of course there will be bumps and drops, are you lecturing to 4 year olds?
The problem you guys are having is I do understand it, and have an insider's knowledge as to how this really works and how things can be improved, but some of your egos will not step aside to see that maybe you don't know how this grading game works.
<< <i>ok good, we have established you are not interested in being an advocate and don't care whether someone who you pass your collection off to gets screwed by a card being severely undergraded and not realizing a decent amount. I guess it's their problem and your gain.
And if you don't understand, which is why I have repeatedly told you over and over again, that you, being a voice(whether you admit or not, you are of PSA football for the collectors) that you can simply call and speak with Joe about issues your seeing so he can have some input from that side, then you really don't understand how things work. >>
What issues am I seeing????That's my question..I obviously can not "grasp" the situation, so please explain exactly what issues I am having with what I am seeing?
Whoever ends up with my collection or peices of it, will know that they have received cards that are in the best possible holder. There will be no need to spend money on reviews and regrades becuase I will have already taken care of that piece...That is unless they disagree with MY OPINION and send the cards back based on THEIR OWN OPINION. If PSA's OPINION agrees with THEIR OPINION when sent in then THEY WILL RECEIVE the bump I couldn't get or didn't think the card warranted.
I am actually offended that you imply that I am somehow raping the fellow collector by simply trusting my own opinion on a card over all else. The fact that you would attack me with such a claim speaks volumes to YOUR character. Instead of whining and complaining as to why I haven't called Joe, try calling him yourself with whatever this top secret methos you have is of 100% accuratly grading every single card in existence.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If can't honestly tell the difference between a 6 and an 8, you don't need to be in this hobby, especially not a grader. Much less a 2 from a 6 or a 5 from an 8.
My example of when your collection passes on was not a specific one, as obviously you are going to continue to submit and resubmit and that's fine, but my example was of others. Your simply not worried about them because Mr. Smith's widowed wife should know to resubmit those, if not, then too bad for her.
<< <i> The problem you guys are having is I do understand it, and have an insider's knowledge as to how this really works and how things can be improved, but some of your egos will not step aside to see that maybe you don't know how this grading game works. >>
Mr. Insider, why again are you urging me to call Joe O. when you have all the info on how things can be improved? All I know is if i have a card that seems to be as good or better than cards graded higher I will resubmit it (with pretty good success).
You have the inside info, call him yourself and let us know how many graders you can get fired in a day. I'm sure that will fix everything...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If can't honestly tell the difference between a 6 and an 8, you don't need to be in this hobby, especially not a grader. Much less a 2 from a 6 or a 5 from an 8.
My example of when your collection passes on was not a specific one, as obviously you are going to continue to submit and resubmit and that's fine, but my example was of others. Your simply not worried about them because Mr. Smith's widowed wife should know to resubmit those, if not, then too bad for her. >>
Shame on Mr. Smith....I wonder if he overpaid for all those undergraded cards???
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>You honestly believe that a 6 to 8 is not erroneously grading a card?
I never said it was exact, in fact, it is indeed subjective. But for those who grade all day long, it is foolish to have people there if you can't grade a card within a certain range, and the examples provided here earlier are proof that there are at least one or more graders who are not at the same standard as the others.
Sure I have made alot of money buying coins that were not properly graded, but you know what, in every instance where there was a significant difference, I always gave more money back when I made that big profit to who I bought it from. Do you do that?
Of course there will be bumps and drops, are you lecturing to 4 year olds?
The problem you guys are having is I do understand it, and have an insider's knowledge as to how this really works and how things can be improved, but some of your egos will not step aside to see that maybe you don't know how this grading game works. >>
Drew:
You keep saying that you get it, then continue to prove that you DON'T!
You're the one with the ego. You're the one that has all of the answers, and you are the one that insist that OTHERS clean up what you perceive is wrong. Talk about egos!
I've been there, done that. I've literally sat on both sides of the table. I know how it works and what you want is something that just can't be.
If you insist on stating that a PSA 6 to a PSA 8 is erroneous grading, then there is no reason to continue to converse. I, and others, have already demonstated that this is not the egregious error that you continue to claim that it is. We'd be best served to agree that we disagree.
Now, that that is settled, how about trying to convince me that your religion is the only true religion?
<< <i> Now, that that is settled, how about trying to convince me that your religion is the only true religion? >>
Oh no....Here we go...lol...
Better yet, lets debate political parties..Who's right and wrong...lololololololol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>And don't forget that we'll debate the morality of abortions after politics...lol... >>
Forgive the digression, but I think we might all be better served if some of these politicians HAD been aborted . . . (BTW, my tongue is planted firmly in my cheek for all those that are immediately offended).
Hmmm...Interesting..So I thought Drew had a post on the B/S/T board selling a bunch of his low dollar stuff...Low and behold, he surely does.
As you are looking down the long list of cards for sale and card sold, you will notice that Drew makes a point to point out cards that are "high end" or "bump worthy" for the grade. Yet strangely he doesn't point out ANY CARD that might be low end for the grade...
Drew, if you are such an honest seller that you GIVE MONEY BACK when you feel bad about making a profit, you SURELY wouldn't pump your good, high end product without also pointing out your low end stuff would you???
Say it ain't so Drew, I was almost beginning to believe your BS..Ok not really, but isn't it funny that someone will preach to his fellow collector to do what's best for the hobby, but then doesn't do the same himself?
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
let's see Jason, I have told people who have asked about a particular card what I thought about it, and alot of the times have not made sales on that one post that would have been over $500 if I was just in it for a sale. I have and will provide any scan as asked and will accept any return provided it is within a reasonable time frame(5 days from receiving said card)
What else should I do outside of that? Maybe you will know since you have bought some of my cards and reflipped them on the boards here.
<< <i>let's see Jason, I have told people who have asked about a particular card what I thought about it, and alot of the times have not made sales on that one post that would have been over $500 if I was just in it for a sale. I have and will provide any scan as asked and will accept any return provided it is within a reasonable time frame(5 days from receiving said card)
What else should I do outside of that? Maybe you will know since you have bought some of my cards and reflipped them on the boards here. >>
I do the same for all my sales as well. I will answer any questions posed to any of my cards with 100% honesty. I've dealt with MANY on the boards as well as thousands on ebay and my old website. I've never had a dissatisfied buyer. Not once.
Is that the source of your anger Drew? The fact that you sold low on cards that I purchased only to flip them for a profit? All were already graded, and to my knowledge nothing I ever bought from you was worthy of a resub, so what I sold was exactly what you sold me. Again, you either know the market or you don't. Don't blame me because you are lacking in that area.
I believe each and every healthy person over 18 years of age on this planet is responsible for their own lives, their own success, their own failure. Nobody made me join the military. Nobody made me stay in it for the 15 years I have served. I'm not in a corporate office making millions of dollars. I do a TOUGH JOB for LOW PAY because I choose to serve my country. Anyone sitting on their couch waiting for someone else to solve their problems for them, or who complains about every little insignificant thing that happens in their lives are sad creatures.
If I go to Iraq tomorrow you won't hear one word of complaint from me. It's part of the process, one that I have gone into as a fully informed member of society. Most collector's didn't know I was overseas even when I was there. I never made that an excuse or said a word about it. So if it bothers you that I made money off of your cards, get a life. I KNOW other members of this board have made money off of my cards in the past. I'm not perfect, never said I was. But I would never hold that against them. Good for them for being a capitalist in a nation of capitalism.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>it seems that we have found two people that always have to be in the right. >>
I'm not trying to be "right"..I posted my opinion and was attacked. If the guy is going to go after me and make it personal I WILL DEFEND myself...
All I have said was PSA is what it is..You either work with the system, or fall behind those that do. No different than almost any other part of society. Where did I go wrong in that belief? i should listen to Drew telling me to call PSA and voice complaints when he himself, a so called insider, won't? All the while being a hypocrite along the way?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
so what is it I'm doing wrong with my card sales Jason, or is this some new circle of not answering a direct question again?
Sure everyone should be accountable for themselves, but for those who rely on a higher standard as they profess to be at least marginally accurate(i.e. within a grade one way or the other) isn't that something fair to expect each and every time they pay for this service?
Sure me and you don't require them to be dead on everytime which is not to be expected, but within a one point margin is not unrealistic and anything worse then that is unacceptable, and if it were me, I would lose my job if such a wide tolerance were allowed.
Are you only asked to perform your duties for 10 out of the 12 hours you work each shift?
<< <i>so what is it I'm doing wrong with my card sales Jason, or is this some new circle of not answering a direct question again?
Sure everyone should be accountable for themselves, but for those who rely on a higher standard as they profess to be at least marginally accurate(i.e. within a grade one way or the other) isn't that something fair to expect each and every time they pay for this service?
Sure me and you don't require them to be dead on everytime which is not to be expected, but within a one point margin is not unrealistic and anything worse then that is unacceptable, and if it were me, I would lose my job if such a wide tolerance were allowed.
Are you only asked to perform your duties for 10 out of the 12 hours you work each shift? >>
First, I don't work "shifts", nor am I paid by the hour.
Secondly, what you are asking is that of the 10 million cards PSA grades, that each and every card be graded perfectly in a subjective (opinion based) system. It just makes no sense.
What are you doing wrong? You didn't know the market on some of the cards you were selling.
Drew, in your opinion, how many cards (%) are correctly graded by PSA?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
OK then, since you are not paid by the shift or hour, are you allowed to only perform your occupation properly 80% of the time? that would have me fired, but I know it's a little tougher in the government so maybe not, even if you perform at nearly 100%
Is all you have left is how I price my cards? For many of the cards I sale, I don't need to squeeze every penny out of the deal and it makes it move quicker, ever thought of that? As long as I break even or make a bit on some cards(depends on the card) then I'm good. I guess 150% profit in the past 18 months is lowballing it for you, whereas if I were squeezing every cent on each card out of it, I could have made possibly 200%, I guess I don't know what I'm doing.
The main point I have made all along is this, I'm glad you brought it back up. You and I absolutely agree that the vast majority of the time PSA gets it right within a small tolerance of grade, but those other times where your having a 3 point spread, that is unacceptable and does need to be addressed.
The main point I have made all along is this, I'm glad you brought it back up. You and I absolutely agree that the vast majority of the time PSA gets it right within a small tolerance of grade, but those other times where your having a 3 point spread, that is unacceptable and does need to be addressed. >>
So address it to PSA, take your examples to them and ask them why. If you have looked at cards that appear to be 3 grades nicer than the grade, there is usually a fatal flaw (hairline crease, glue stain, etc). You can read PSA's grading standards to understand what exactly each flaw can warrant. When they go back, and that flaw is either no longer present, or in the opinion of the 2nd grader is not bad enough to earn the card the lower grade it will be upgraded. Everything minus centering is determined by levels of..Levels of wear on the corners, edges, gloss..Levels of print spots/defects. It's up to the grader to decide where the card falls on the scale. SOMETIMES, cards can fall within a multitude of ranges..You are dealing with cardboard, and one cards trash is another cards treasure so to speak.
It's not up to me to babysit the thousands of collectors out there who buy low end cards for high end price. Sorry, I am NOT a liberal thinker, and each person is responsible for their own knowledge base. Should I blame the government for not paying for my college without first joining the military? Should I blame your parents for not telling my parents to save wisely so their child would have college money ready when they graduated high school? I mean you could go on forever and about all things. The bottom line is if you have a problem, which it seems that you do, take it up with the source. Don't come on a message board and attempt to "sell" other collectors to do it for you. i don;t have a problem with the system. I don't mind that sometimes cards are misgraded. I get that its an opinion based system, so I educated myself on what to look for and what PSA looks for. It has saved me A LOT of money as I can buy a PSA 9 card for a PSA 8 price+ resub fee. I don't always win either. I've had my share of cards come back lower graded as well. It's just part of the game.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I can assume by your non-response you are happier with buying the vastly undergraded cards and profiting off of them than worrying about the greater good for the card community and actively discussing this issue with PSA so all their graders are more in line together.
and that does not happen with coins huh Drew?
Speaking of non-response I asked you a question earlier and you seem to have blown it off.
I asked: Have you ever heard of a coin going from AU58 to MS 63?
<< <i>So address it to PSA, take your examples to them and ask them why. If you have looked at cards that appear to be 3 grades nicer than the grade, there is usually a fatal flaw (hairline crease, glue stain, etc). You can read PSA's grading standards to understand what exactly each flaw can warrant. When they go back, and that flaw is either no longer present, or in the opinion of the 2nd grader is not bad enough to earn the card the lower grade it will be upgraded. Everything minus centering is determined by levels of..Levels of wear on the corners, edges, gloss..Levels of print spots/defects. It's up to the grader to decide where the card falls on the scale. SOMETIMES, cards can fall within a multitude of ranges..You are dealing with cardboard, and one cards trash is another cards treasure so to speak.
It's not up to me to babysit the thousands of collectors out there who buy low end cards for high end price. Sorry, I am NOT a liberal thinker, and each person is responsible for their own knowledge base. Should I blame the government for not paying for my college without first joining the military? Should I blame your parents for not telling my parents to save wisely so their child would have college money ready when they graduated high school? I mean you could go on forever and about all things. The bottom line is if you have a problem, which it seems that you do, take it up with the source. Don't come on a message board and attempt to "sell" other collectors to do it for you. i don;t have a problem with the system. I don't mind that sometimes cards are misgraded. I get that its an opinion based system, so I educated myself on what to look for and what PSA looks for. It has saved me A LOT of money as I can buy a PSA 9 card for a PSA 8 price+ resub fee. I don't always win either. I've had my share of cards come back lower graded as well. It's just part of the game.
Jason >>
Jason:
Sorry for the poor choice of words, but in this case, you may be best off to "cut and run." Unless, of course, you have endless hours to bantar back and forth about something that appears to now be a matter of semantics.
Drew has his opinon, you have yours . . . heck, I even have mine! Luckily, no blood was spilled. Continue to do what you do best and I'm sure Drew will continue to do what he does best. Its no skin off anyone's nose . . . just a few hundred keystrokes and NOTHING was accomplished (kinda like talking to my wife).
<< <i> Drew has his opinon, you have yours . . . heck, I even have mine! Luckily, no blood was spilled. Continue to do what you do best and I'm sure Drew will continue to do what he does best. Its no skin off anyone's nose . . . just a few hundred keystrokes and NOTHING was accomplished (kinda like talking to my wife). >>
Your wife too????lol
Hey, I had some time to kill on a Monday off work...No harm, no foul here...I don't think there is anything left for me to add really, I've pretty much stated my case to try and give an objective view. I'm not the authority, I'm no different than anyone else who posts here or has experience with graded cards. I'm not anyones spokesman, and I don't work for PSA...lol
Simply call them as I see them. I apologize if my numerous posts gave anyone a headache. I'm not an aggresive guy, but when I attacked i will defend my stance to no end...Just in my nature...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I can assume by your non-response you are happier with buying the vastly undergraded cards and profiting off of them than worrying about the greater good for the card community and actively discussing this issue with PSA so all their graders are more in line together.
and that does not happen with coins huh Drew?
Speaking of non-response I asked you a question earlier and you seem to have blown it off.
I asked: Have you ever heard of a coin going from AU58 to MS 63?
Or a 63 go to 65?
Steve >>
I already answered that question on the previous page, here it is again for you.
Steve, I have examined over one million coins personally graded and encapsulated in respected third party grading services holders', and have no hesitation to say what I have saw from PSA's inconsistencies, and that's not to leave SGC or BGS out either, they are not even close to the consistency in coin grading. The times coins will change two points or more, at the same grading company, especially considering your example of 64 to 66, is minute to the bumps that are possible with card grading.
<< <i>Yeah I saw that reply, I guess I was looking for a simple yes or no.
I got to the part about your claim of examining a million coins and did not fully grasp anything else of it.
So the answer was yes I think? >>
you have quite a limited view of the coin business if you think a simple yes or no question is a sufficient answer. For classic U.S. type coinage and all 19th and 18th century coinage, for a coin to go from AU58 to MS63 or from MS63 to MS65 or MS64 to MS66, all of which you have asked about, the answer is less than one in a 10,000, maybe even 20,000 shot, and those estimates are low if anything.
<< <i> you have quite a limited view of the coin business if you think a simple yes or no question is a sufficient answer. For classic U.S. type coinage and all 19th and 18th century coinage, for a coin to go from AU58 to MS63 or from MS63 to MS65 or MS64 to MS66, all of which you have asked about, the answer is less than one in a 10,000, maybe even 20,000 shot, and those estimates are low if anything. >>
Drew do those numbers include coins that are doctored before being resubmitted? From what I read over on the coin forum, sounds like there are MAJOR doctoring issues in the coin side. I don't know ANYTHING about coins, but I feel PSA does a fairly descent job of catching card alterations. Cardboard has got to be easier to catch in most cases vs. metal coins.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
Personally, I don't think of that card as getting a 2 point grade jump. I think of it more as just a solid PSA 7 that was undergraded once, and then overgraded once ... thus being more of a one point grade swing on each end of the scale.
I agree that currently there isn't much of a difference between a very strong 6 and a very weak 8. I've always thought that was one of the basic problems with the standard 10 point scale, and I'm hoping that the new half grades might help solve that problem. Hopefully under the new system, that card will only swing from a 6.5 to a 7.5 ... which is probably a lot closer to the way it should be.
I always thought PSA would make the switch someday, so this didn't surprise me too much. I do, however, think they're missing the boat on basic customer relations, by not offering some super cheap regrading specials to help soften the blow.
They decided to change the rules of the game midstream, and no matter how you like it, or look at it ... it's going to cost every collector more money (either by resubmitting, or by not resubmitting and loosing some value) ....
... except for Cardbender. I've seen all 3,000 of his slabbed cards, and they're all weak for the grade.
Seriously though, PSA should throw out some major bones for the next 6 months, to help lessen the financial impact this decision is going to have on their loyal customers.
Mike
<< <i>
<< <i>well Jason, here's a common sense one for starters. Have you ever sent one of these cards that you have got an incredible bump (two or more grades) and sent it back to them or at least let Joe know what happened and how such wide spreads on the cards coming back is a major issue and hurts the marketplace as a whole. I can go on and on if you wish, especially with the 15+ years I have experienced in the coin business(which is light years ahead of the sportscards market and has already been there,done that with all the issues that will be upcoming in the sportscard grading business.) That is where I'm coming from.
Of all people here, you have apparently been appointed the voice of PSA football for these boards, and actively talk with the Registry people at PSA. I say, extend yourself if you are this voice and talk with Joe about these types of issues, it would certainly come off as more valid than a couple of guys just calling in to customer service to complain about such things, and to be honest, would give PSA alot of insight about what the collectors in general are seeing in the graded marketplace. >>
First of all, I'm not an appointed anything by PSA. I speak my opinion based on my experience, that's it. I talk to Cosetta, BJ, Gayle all the Registry folks because I care about the football sets that I helped create and I try and ensure they are run how the masses (or at least those of us who post here) want them run.
I don't carry any more or less weight with Joe Orlando than you do. I don't have the huge complaint that you seem to have, so why would I call and complain? I understand the grading game. I'm still waiting to hear exactly HOW you propse the graders become more consistent? Since you are the coin expert, can you honestly say you could look at 20 random ungraded coins and predict within 2 points of where they will grade by PSA? I'd really like to see that, I would be impressed if you could go 100% on that. The reason it would be so tough is because GRADING IS SUBJECTIVE. Anyone who thinks it is an exact science is in the wrong hobby, PERIOD.
Jason >>
My huge complaint is you and others seem ok with reaping the profits from grading inconsistencies rather than complaining that they should be held to a higher standard than being within 2 grades, especially when they are working on a 10 point scale. Don't you think that is pathetic, or are you happier with the deals you get because of it? Not sure what your still waiting on how to make the graders more consistent, it was laid out pretty simple in one of my previous posts. The only chance a normal person has to influence the consistency is by talking with Joe, and having concrete examples of how the standards are wildly inconsistent and being able to back that up by having him send the card back in to the graders to discuss. Apparently your not interested in that, but in my opinion, that is one of the things that would be a great improvement to the sportscard community in general, how is not having a more accurate and consistent team of graders not a good thing again????
Anytime you want to take the challenge on the 20 coins, let me know, I will send you my address and will back it up with anything you require.
Steve
I can't imagine a scenario where PSA won't offer some type of grading special(s) in 2008 aimed at talking guys who are on the fence into resubbing their cards.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
My huge complaint is you and others seem ok with reaping the profits from grading inconsistencies rather than complaining that they should be held to a higher standard than being within 2 grades, especially when they are working on a 10 point scale. Don't you think that is pathetic, or are you happier with the deals you get because of it? Not sure what your still waiting on how to make the graders more consistent, it was laid out pretty simple in one of my previous posts. The only chance a normal person has to influence the consistency is by talking with Joe, and having concrete examples of how the standards are wildly inconsistent and being able to back that up by having him send the card back in to the graders to discuss. Apparently your not interested in that, but in my opinion, that is one of the things that would be a great improvement to the sportscard community in general, how is not having a more accurate and consistent team of graders not a good thing again????
Anytime you want to take the challenge on the 20 coins, let me know, I will send you my address and will back it up with anything you require. >>
LOLOL..Hilarious...Sorry man, I don't know jack about coins except the ones in my pocket..lol..I'll have to take your word for it I guess..Are you as good at grading cards as you are coins? Maybe I could hire you on to show me what to look for..I'm clueless..
I just re-read all of your posts, and sorry I don't see any specifics on how exactly PSA or anyone else for that matter would be able to make card grading more consistent. I'm not looking for the generalization, I'd like to know specifically how do you make a fleet of PSA graders more consistent? They look over thousands of cards, probably every week. I'm sure they've all been trained. Even the senior graders or head guys, what more can you do when the PROCESS IS SUBJECTIVE??? I just don't get it..I must be stupid..Please explain, break it down for me step-by-step..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The Importance of Eye-Appeal and Subjectivity in Grading
Over the years, more and more collectors have come to understand the basic guidelines behind PSA grading. After grading for well over a decade, PSA grading standards have truly become the official standard for the most valuable cards in the hobby. That being said, there are a host of grading questions that arise and the one basic question that comes up the most has to do with eye-appeal and centering.
While it's true that a large part of grading is objective (locating print defects, staining, surface wrinkles, measuring centering, etc.), the other component of grading is somewhat subjective. The best way to define the subjective element is to do so by posing a question: What will the market accept for this particular issue?
Again, the vast majority of grading is applied with a basic, objective standard but no one can ignore the small (yet sometimes significant) subjective element. This issue will usually arise when centering and/or eye-appeal are in question. For example, while most cards fall clearly within the centering guidelines for a particular grade, some cards fall either just within or just outside the printed centering standards. The key point to remember is that the graders reserve the right, based on the strength or weakness of the eye-appeal, to make a judgment call on the grade of a particular card.
What does this mean exactly?
Well, take this example. Let's say you have a 1955 Topps Sandy Koufax rookie card that is right on the edge of the acceptable guidelines for centering in a particular grade. The 1955 Koufax card has a yellow background that tends to blend with the border of the card. In other words, the contrast isn't great so poor centering may not be much of an eyesore - the borders are not clearly defined. In this case, if the card exhibits extremely strong characteristics in other areas (color, corners, etc.), an exception may be made to allow an otherwise slightly off-center card to fall within an unqualified grade (no OC qualifier). This is a rare occurrence but it does happen.
On the other hand, there are cards that technically fall within the printed PSA Grading Standards that may be prevented from reaching a particular, unqualified grade because the eye-appeal becomes an issue. For example, a 1957 Topps Sandy Koufax card has great contrast between the white borders and the picture because the background is very dark. It is possible that a 1957 Topps Sandy Koufax, one that technically measures for a particular grade - let's say 70/30, may be prevented from reaching that unqualified grade because the market would view that card as off-center - based on eye-appeal issues. Again, this is a rare occurrence but it does happen from time to time when a judgment call has to be made on a card that pushes the limits for centering.
In conclusion, the issues discussed do not apply to the vast majority of cards that filter through the PSA grading process each day but this is an issue that needed some clarification in the marketplace. The bottom line is that there are times when a PSA grader must make a call on a card that falls on the line between two grades and that final determination is made based on experience, eye-appeal and market acceptability.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I can assume by your non-response you are happier with buying the vastly undergraded cards and profiting off of them than worrying about the greater good for the card community and actively discussing this issue with PSA so all their graders are more in line together.
I will let you answer that question I have posed twice now before having to continue to explain the same thing you keep asking and I have answered all of your questions.
<< <i>all the standards that you pasted is just a fluff job and is standard practice to where they can point the crazy people who call up and don't know what they are looking at. Yes I am that good at coins, but coins are on a different level than cards.
I can assume by your non-response you are happier with buying the vastly undergraded cards and profiting off of them than worrying about the greater good for the card community and actively discussing this issue with PSA so all their graders are more in line together.
I will let you answer that question I have posed twice now before having to continue to explain the same thing you keep asking and I have answered all of your questions. >>
I already answered this as well...What EXACLY WOULD I CALL LPSA AND SAY????
Me: Hey Joe, you need to get your graders to be more consistent.
Joe: Good point jason, our guys evaluate 1,000 cards per week on average, all have been trained to PSA's grading standards, what would you suggest?
Me: I don't know, look at this I had a card grade PSA 7 one day, then PSA 6 the next day, and PSA 8 the 3rd day. Can't you do better?
Joe: Grading is subjective, how do we correct it Jason?
Me: I guess take more time on each card?
Joe: Then we grade less cards and the wait times go even longer. This is a for profit business.
Me: Hire more graders?
Joe: I thought you wanted consistency?
Me: We do, why can;t you just be perfect and grade every card like a computer. Every single 8 in the world should be an 8. Every single 6 should be a 6, there shouldn;t be any guess work!
Joe: You're joking right?
Me: Call drewsf, he seems to have some secret way of being more consistent but he won't tell me how, and seems to think you won;t listen to him.
Joe: Ahh, well he's a coin guy...
Me: That explains everything. Bye Joe.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
No matter how you argue it, you have a better name to approach this subject but apparently you have no interest in doing so. All you have to do is be honest with Joe about what you are seeing in the marketplace and how it is hurting the PSA name and consistent grading within a point is paramount to the card community. Why can't you understand all you have to do is pick up the phone and do that like once a monthy and give him a collector's voice of what you are seeing and how the collectors are interpreting what's going on, you are better than anyone else here.
If your little satire of a phone conversation is how you really would talk on the phone and handle yourself, then you are right, your the wrong one to do this despite being in the best position to do so.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a be-all, end-all, 100% accurate grading system. While we give you the benefit of the doubt that you are, as you claim, an expert at coin grading and have seen more coins that we even thought were minted, you would be best served by accepting the fact that we're talking about grading two completely different mediums. Metal versus cardboard?
Understand that just because someone understands the "system" and has contact with those inside the "system," it it not a given that they have any say in correcting the "system." And who is to say that the "system" needs to be corrected? You? Why? Just because YOU don't agree with it? Just because you have YOUR opinon? That's all fine, but please read on.
While the bumbs highlighted in this thread are the result of legitimate resubmission and reevaluation (and the removal of a glue knot), these bumps are not as drastic as some seem to believe. Indulge me for a minute and consider while working with a full point scale, and given that grading is a subjective art, three graders see the same card as a stong EX-MT 6 (6.5), an average NM 7 (7.0) or even a very weak NM-MT 8 (7.5). Now, while the composite grade may be a NM 7, it is only a breadth of one full grade to justify the card receiving a PSA 6 or a PSA 8 (6.5 rounded down to 7.5 rounded up).
And anyone that want to claim that aesthetics and eye appeal are only grading cop outs need only look at a nicely centered EX-MT set in a binder versus a NM-MT set that pushes the limits of 80/20 centering.
There will ALWAYS be issues with grading ANY scale for as I said at the outset, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a be-all, end-all, 100% accurate grading system . . . especially when the human factor is involved.
<< <i>Drew:
It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a be-all, end-all, 100% accurate grading system. While we give you the benefit of the doubt that you are, as you claim, an expert at coin grading and have seen more coins that we even thought were minted, you would be best served by accepting the fact that we're talking about grading two completely different mediums. Metal versus cardboard?
Understand that just because someone understands the "system" and has contact with those inside the "system," it it not a given that they have any say in correcting the "system." And who is to say that the "system" needs to be corrected? You? Why? Just because YOU don't agree with it? Just because you have YOUR opinon? That's all fine, but please read on.
While the bumbs highlighted in this thread are the result of legitimate resubmission and reevaluation (and the removal of a glue knot), these bumps are not as drastic as some seem to believe. Indulge me for a minute and consider while working with a full point scale, and given that grading is a subjective art, three graders see the same card as a stong EX-MT 6 (6.5), an average NM 7 (7.0) or even a very weak NM-MT 8 (7.5). Now, while the composite grade may be a NM 7, it is only a breadth of one full grade to justify the card receiving a PSA 6 or a PSA 8 (6.5 rounded down to 7.5 rounded up).
And anyone that want to claim that aesthetics and eye appeal are only grading cop outs need only look at a nicely centered EX-MT set in a binder versus a NM-MT set that pushes the limits of 80/20 centering.
There will ALWAYS be issues with grading ANY scale for as I said at the outset, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a be-all, end-all, 100% accurate grading system . . . especially when the human factor is involved. >>
FINALLY a voice of reason and sanity...lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Be careful with the sanity comments. I haven't been sane since opening my first pack of cards . . . oh so many years ago!
<< <i>So we can assume you would rather prey on those who are losing alot of money by the inconsistent grading, or are you for doing things the right way and attempting to at least speak with a grader or Joe about what the collectors are seeing? Is that what your saying? Answer the question Jason.
>>
Ok, I'll do this ONE MORE TIME for the slow crowd.
What plausible information would I be able to give the President of PSA? Hey, this card has 7 centering and it's in an 8 holder..hey this card has a 6 corner and its in an 8 holder. Hey this card has zero flaws and it's in an 8 holder. How does this help them fix not being consistent? I just don't get it..Showing it to Joe? OK, now you'll just get HIS opinion on the card..Show it to the head grader? Now you get HIS opinion on the card...No matter what, it's all opinion..THAT IS WHAT PSA DOES! A 3rd party opinion. if you can;t handle or don't agree with PSA's opinions STOP USING THE SERVICE....
How is it affecting the marketplace? Ask the PSA 7 1948 Leaf Bobby Layne, the PSA 9 1950 Tom Fears or the PSA 9 1964 Topps Bobby Bell that all ended on ebay last night.
Now its your turn..I want you to answer...HOW DOES PSA IMPROVE CONSISTENCY??????
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>So we can assume you would rather prey on those who are losing alot of money by the inconsistent grading, or are you for doing things the right way and attempting to at least speak with a grader or Joe about what the collectors are seeing? Is that what your saying? Answer the question Jason.
>>
Ok, I'll do this ONE MORE TIME for the slow crowd.
What plausible information would I be able to give the President of PSA? Hey, this card has 7 centering and it's in an 8 holder..hey this card has a 6 corner and its in an 8 holder. Hey this card has zero flaws and it's in an 8 holder. How does this help them fix not being consistent? I just don't get it..Showing it to Joe? OK, now you'll just get HIS opinion on the card..Show it to the head grader? Now you get HIS opinion on the card...No matter what, it's all opinion..THAT IS WHAT PSA DOES! A 3rd party opinion. if you can;t handle or don't agree with PSA's opinions STOP USING THE SERVICE....
How is it affecting the marketplace? Ask the PSA 7 1948 Leaf Bobby Layne, the PSA 9 1950 Tom Fears or the PSA 9 1964 Topps Bobby Bell that all ended on ebay last night.
Now its your turn..I want you to answer...HOW DOES PSA IMPROVE CONSISTENCY?????? >>
You really are that thickheaded huh. And you continue to try to run around the question I posed.
What don't you get Jason???? If you were concerned you would do as I have already said numerous times here. I will paste it again for you.
No matter how you argue it, you have a better name to approach this subject but apparently you have no interest in doing so. All you have to do is be honest with Joe about what you are seeing in the marketplace and how it is hurting the PSA name and consistent grading within a point is paramount to the card community. Why can't you understand all you have to do is pick up the phone and do that like once a monthy and give him a collector's voice of what you are seeing and how the collectors are interpreting what's going on, you are better than anyone else here.
Let me know what doesn't seep in this time and we can go forward from there.
Ok, you gave 3 examples of cards that ended with huge numbers last night, good for you. Now what about those who rely on PSA to get close to the accurate grade without becoming experts at grading(again for you, this does not include me or you or some people on the boards.) What about those people who rely on them and pay them good money to provide this service, and then they get back a card graded 6 that should be a 7 or 8 and within that tolerance. They sell the card to someone like you, taking a huge loss and you profit from it, and you don't see how that affects the marketplace? I ask, do you personally feel that a 3 point margin between a 6 and 8 is acceptable for trained professionals whom this is their only job?
<< <i>You really are that thickheaded huh. And you continue to try to run around the question I posed.
What don't you get Jason???? If you were concerned you would do as I have already said numerous times here. I will paste it again for you.
No matter how you argue it, you have a better name to approach this subject but apparently you have no interest in doing so. All you have to do is be honest with Joe about what you are seeing in the marketplace and how it is hurting the PSA name and consistent grading within a point is paramount to the card community. Why can't you understand all you have to do is pick up the phone and do that like once a monthy and give him a collector's voice of what you are seeing and how the collectors are interpreting what's going on, you are better than anyone else here.
Let me know what doesn't seep in this time and we can go forward from there.
Ok, you gave 3 examples of cards that ended with huge numbers last night, good for you. Now what about those who rely on PSA to get close to the accurate grade without becoming experts at grading(again for you, this does not include me or you or some people on the boards.) What about those people who rely on them and pay them good money to provide this service, and then they get back a card graded 6 that should be a 7 or 8 and within that tolerance. They sell the card to someone like you, taking a huge loss and you profit from it, and you don't see how that affects the marketplace? I ask, do you personally feel that a 3 point margin between a 6 and 8 is acceptable for trained professionals whom this is their only job? >>
I guess so drew..I must be an idiot...All you keep saying is the same thing..Tell them they are being inconsistent. I answered your question 20 times. I DO NOT HAVE A COMPLAINT WITH PSA. I understand that grading is a subjective process, and I also understand that based on the many many cards I have inspected myself that the difference between a high end PSA 6 and a low end PSA 8 simply is not as large as you are making it out to be.
You are the guy whining and complaining. Call Joe yourself, send him the scans, etc, etc. Like I said, all you're going to get is another opinion. If you don;t understand that is the service PSA offers that's on you.
As far as the collector's you speak of who sell undergraded cards and buy overgraded cards, it's a consumers market. You either educate yourself or the losses are on you.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> Now what about those who rely on PSA to get close to the accurate grade without becoming experts at grading(again for you, this does not include me or you or some people on the boards.) What about those people who rely on them and pay them good money to provide this service, and then they get back a card graded 6 that should be a 7 or 8 and within that tolerance. They sell the card to someone like you, taking a huge loss and you profit from it, and you don't see how that affects the marketplace? I ask, do you personally feel that a 3 point margin between a 6 and 8 is acceptable for trained professionals whom this is their only job? >>
Drew:
You are asking Jason this question and presenting a scenario under the assumption that PSA is erroneously grading cards, that pointing out such will have an impact, and that those that realize this snafu keep quiet because it affords them the opportunity to profit while "unsuspecting" collectors are being done monetary harm.
First, I've already explained that the swing from a PSA 6 to a PSA 8 can be actually the same as a one grade swing (albeit the realized price differential is certainly much larger) and to point at that as an example of erroneous or inconsistent grading is questionable. Second, exactly what impact will Jason's commentary on the situation have with regard to Joe or any of the graders? This is an art that is SUBJECTIVE!!! Hell, I was a senior grader, defined the half point scale, and given a borderline card, I can see it in one holder one day and another holder the next. Granted, it would only be a half point swing, but it is NOT an EXACT science as you seem to profess that it could and should be. And third, there will ALWAYS be those that take advantage of opportunity. Whether blatently outlandish or subliminally passive, our society has been built upon seizing financial opportunity. Have you ever bought ANYTHING that you felt was better than advertised? A coin that you felt was undergraded, perhaps? Or did you offer to pay more because you felt it was the right thing to do?
I realize that CU has an obligation as a third party service, but they also have an obligation to their shareholders.
Anyway, as long as grading is subjective and there is room for interpretation, there will be resubmissions, there will be bumps, and there will be grades that drop . . . YES, I said there will be grades that DROP! It's the nature of the beast and one that no matter how hard you, Jason, or I try, we will never be able to tame . . . only understand.
And if you don't understand, which is why I have repeatedly told you over and over again, that you, being a voice(whether you admit or not, you are of PSA football for the collectors) that you can simply call and speak with Joe about issues your seeing so he can have some input from that side, then you really don't understand how things work.
<< <i>
<< <i> Now what about those who rely on PSA to get close to the accurate grade without becoming experts at grading(again for you, this does not include me or you or some people on the boards.) What about those people who rely on them and pay them good money to provide this service, and then they get back a card graded 6 that should be a 7 or 8 and within that tolerance. They sell the card to someone like you, taking a huge loss and you profit from it, and you don't see how that affects the marketplace? I ask, do you personally feel that a 3 point margin between a 6 and 8 is acceptable for trained professionals whom this is their only job? >>
Drew:
You are asking Jason this question and presenting a scenario under the assumption that PSA is erroneously grading cards, that pointing out such will have an impact, and that those that realize this snafu keep quiet because it affords them the opportunity to profit while "unsuspecting" collectors are being done monetary harm.
First, I've already explained that the swing from a PSA 6 to a PSA 8 can be actually the same as a one grade swing (albeit the realized price differential is certainly much larger) and to point at that as an example of erroneous or inconsistent grading is questionable. Second, exactly what impact will Jason's commentary on the situation have with regard to Joe or any of the graders? This is an art that is SUBJECTIVE!!! Hell, I was a senior grader, defined the half point scale, and given a borderline card, I can see it in one holder one day and another holder the next. Granted, it would only be a half point swing, but it is NOT an EXACT science as you seem to profess that it could and should be. And third, there will ALWAYS be those that take advantage of opportunity. Whether blatently outlandish or subliminally passive, our society has been built upon seizing financial opportunity. Have you ever bought ANYTHING that you felt was better than advertised? A coin that you felt was undergraded, perhaps? Or did you offer to pay more because you felt it was the right thing to do?
I realize that CU has an obligation as a third party service, but they also have an obligation to their shareholders.
Anyway, as long as grading is subjective and there is room for interpretation, there will be resubmissions, there will be bumps, and there will be grades that drop . . . YES, I said there will be grades that DROP! It's the nature of the beast and one that no matter how hard you, Jason, or I try, we will never be able to tame . . . only understand. >>
You honestly believe that a 6 to 8 is not erroneously grading a card?
I never said it was exact, in fact, it is indeed subjective. But for those who grade all day long, it is foolish to have people there if you can't grade a card within a certain range, and the examples provided here earlier are proof that there are at least one or more graders who are not at the same standard as the others.
Sure I have made alot of money buying coins that were not properly graded, but you know what, in every instance where there was a significant difference, I always gave more money back when I made that big profit to who I bought it from. Do you do that?
Of course there will be bumps and drops, are you lecturing to 4 year olds?
The problem you guys are having is I do understand it, and have an insider's knowledge as to how this really works and how things can be improved, but some of your egos will not step aside to see that maybe you don't know how this grading game works.
<< <i>ok good, we have established you are not interested in being an advocate and don't care whether someone who you pass your collection off to gets screwed by a card being severely undergraded and not realizing a decent amount. I guess it's their problem and your gain.
And if you don't understand, which is why I have repeatedly told you over and over again, that you, being a voice(whether you admit or not, you are of PSA football for the collectors) that you can simply call and speak with Joe about issues your seeing so he can have some input from that side, then you really don't understand how things work. >>
What issues am I seeing????That's my question..I obviously can not "grasp" the situation, so please explain exactly what issues I am having with what I am seeing?
Whoever ends up with my collection or peices of it, will know that they have received cards that are in the best possible holder. There will be no need to spend money on reviews and regrades becuase I will have already taken care of that piece...That is unless they disagree with MY OPINION and send the cards back based on THEIR OWN OPINION. If PSA's OPINION agrees with THEIR OPINION when sent in then THEY WILL RECEIVE the bump I couldn't get or didn't think the card warranted.
I am actually offended that you imply that I am somehow raping the fellow collector by simply trusting my own opinion on a card over all else. The fact that you would attack me with such a claim speaks volumes to YOUR character. Instead of whining and complaining as to why I haven't called Joe, try calling him yourself with whatever this top secret methos you have is of 100% accuratly grading every single card in existence.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If can't honestly tell the difference between a 6 and an 8, you don't need to be in this hobby, especially not a grader. Much less a 2 from a 6 or a 5 from an 8.
My example of when your collection passes on was not a specific one, as obviously you are going to continue to submit and resubmit and that's fine, but my example was of others. Your simply not worried about them because Mr. Smith's widowed wife should know to resubmit those, if not, then too bad for her.
<< <i>
The problem you guys are having is I do understand it, and have an insider's knowledge as to how this really works and how things can be improved, but some of your egos will not step aside to see that maybe you don't know how this grading game works. >>
Mr. Insider, why again are you urging me to call Joe O. when you have all the info on how things can be improved? All I know is if i have a card that seems to be as good or better than cards graded higher I will resubmit it (with pretty good success).
You have the inside info, call him yourself and let us know how many graders you can get fired in a day. I'm sure that will fix everything...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>spin it Jason, spin it
If can't honestly tell the difference between a 6 and an 8, you don't need to be in this hobby, especially not a grader. Much less a 2 from a 6 or a 5 from an 8.
My example of when your collection passes on was not a specific one, as obviously you are going to continue to submit and resubmit and that's fine, but my example was of others. Your simply not worried about them because Mr. Smith's widowed wife should know to resubmit those, if not, then too bad for her. >>
Shame on Mr. Smith....I wonder if he overpaid for all those undergraded cards???
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>You honestly believe that a 6 to 8 is not erroneously grading a card?
I never said it was exact, in fact, it is indeed subjective. But for those who grade all day long, it is foolish to have people there if you can't grade a card within a certain range, and the examples provided here earlier are proof that there are at least one or more graders who are not at the same standard as the others.
Sure I have made alot of money buying coins that were not properly graded, but you know what, in every instance where there was a significant difference, I always gave more money back when I made that big profit to who I bought it from. Do you do that?
Of course there will be bumps and drops, are you lecturing to 4 year olds?
The problem you guys are having is I do understand it, and have an insider's knowledge as to how this really works and how things can be improved, but some of your egos will not step aside to see that maybe you don't know how this grading game works. >>
Drew:
You keep saying that you get it, then continue to prove that you DON'T!
You're the one with the ego. You're the one that has all of the answers, and you are the one that insist that OTHERS clean up what you perceive is wrong. Talk about egos!
I've been there, done that. I've literally sat on both sides of the table. I know how it works and what you want is something that just can't be.
If you insist on stating that a PSA 6 to a PSA 8 is erroneous grading, then there is no reason to continue to converse. I, and others, have already demonstated that this is not the egregious error that you continue to claim that it is. We'd be best served to agree that we disagree.
Now, that that is settled, how about trying to convince me that your religion is the only true religion?
<< <i>
<< <i>
Now, that that is settled, how about trying to convince me that your religion is the only true religion?
Oh no....Here we go...lol...
Better yet, lets debate political parties..Who's right and wrong...lololololololol
And don't forget that we'll debate the morality of abortions after politics...lol...
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>
Now, that that is settled, how about trying to convince me that your religion is the only true religion?
Oh no....Here we go...lol...
Better yet, lets debate political parties..Who's right and wrong...lololololololol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>And don't forget that we'll debate the morality of abortions after politics...lol... >>
Forgive the digression, but I think we might all be better served if some of these politicians HAD been aborted . . . (BTW, my tongue is planted firmly in my cheek for all those that are immediately offended).
As you are looking down the long list of cards for sale and card sold, you will notice that Drew makes a point to point out cards that are "high end" or "bump worthy" for the grade. Yet strangely he doesn't point out ANY CARD that might be low end for the grade...
Drew, if you are such an honest seller that you GIVE MONEY BACK when you feel bad about making a profit, you SURELY wouldn't pump your good, high end product without also pointing out your low end stuff would you???
Say it ain't so Drew, I was almost beginning to believe your BS..Ok not really, but isn't it funny that someone will preach to his fellow collector to do what's best for the hobby, but then doesn't do the same himself?
Here is the sale thread
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
What else should I do outside of that? Maybe you will know since you have bought some of my cards and reflipped them on the boards here.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>let's see Jason, I have told people who have asked about a particular card what I thought about it, and alot of the times have not made sales on that one post that would have been over $500 if I was just in it for a sale. I have and will provide any scan as asked and will accept any return provided it is within a reasonable time frame(5 days from receiving said card)
What else should I do outside of that? Maybe you will know since you have bought some of my cards and reflipped them on the boards here. >>
I do the same for all my sales as well. I will answer any questions posed to any of my cards with 100% honesty. I've dealt with MANY on the boards as well as thousands on ebay and my old website. I've never had a dissatisfied buyer. Not once.
Is that the source of your anger Drew? The fact that you sold low on cards that I purchased only to flip them for a profit? All were already graded, and to my knowledge nothing I ever bought from you was worthy of a resub, so what I sold was exactly what you sold me. Again, you either know the market or you don't. Don't blame me because you are lacking in that area.
I believe each and every healthy person over 18 years of age on this planet is responsible for their own lives, their own success, their own failure. Nobody made me join the military. Nobody made me stay in it for the 15 years I have served. I'm not in a corporate office making millions of dollars. I do a TOUGH JOB for LOW PAY because I choose to serve my country. Anyone sitting on their couch waiting for someone else to solve their problems for them, or who complains about every little insignificant thing that happens in their lives are sad creatures.
If I go to Iraq tomorrow you won't hear one word of complaint from me. It's part of the process, one that I have gone into as a fully informed member of society. Most collector's didn't know I was overseas even when I was there. I never made that an excuse or said a word about it. So if it bothers you that I made money off of your cards, get a life. I KNOW other members of this board have made money off of my cards in the past. I'm not perfect, never said I was. But I would never hold that against them. Good for them for being a capitalist in a nation of capitalism.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>it seems that we have found two people that always have to be in the right. >>
I'm not trying to be "right"..I posted my opinion and was attacked. If the guy is going to go after me and make it personal I WILL DEFEND myself...
All I have said was PSA is what it is..You either work with the system, or fall behind those that do. No different than almost any other part of society. Where did I go wrong in that belief? i should listen to Drew telling me to call PSA and voice complaints when he himself, a so called insider, won't? All the while being a hypocrite along the way?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Sure everyone should be accountable for themselves, but for those who rely on a higher standard as they profess to be at least marginally accurate(i.e. within a grade one way or the other) isn't that something fair to expect each and every time they pay for this service?
Sure me and you don't require them to be dead on everytime which is not to be expected, but within a one point margin is not unrealistic and anything worse then that is unacceptable, and if it were me, I would lose my job if such a wide tolerance were allowed.
Are you only asked to perform your duties for 10 out of the 12 hours you work each shift?
<< <i>so what is it I'm doing wrong with my card sales Jason, or is this some new circle of not answering a direct question again?
Sure everyone should be accountable for themselves, but for those who rely on a higher standard as they profess to be at least marginally accurate(i.e. within a grade one way or the other) isn't that something fair to expect each and every time they pay for this service?
Sure me and you don't require them to be dead on everytime which is not to be expected, but within a one point margin is not unrealistic and anything worse then that is unacceptable, and if it were me, I would lose my job if such a wide tolerance were allowed.
Are you only asked to perform your duties for 10 out of the 12 hours you work each shift? >>
First, I don't work "shifts", nor am I paid by the hour.
Secondly, what you are asking is that of the 10 million cards PSA grades, that each and every card be graded perfectly in a subjective (opinion based) system. It just makes no sense.
What are you doing wrong? You didn't know the market on some of the cards you were selling.
Drew, in your opinion, how many cards (%) are correctly graded by PSA?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Is all you have left is how I price my cards? For many of the cards I sale, I don't need to squeeze every penny out of the deal and it makes it move quicker, ever thought of that? As long as I break even or make a bit on some cards(depends on the card) then I'm good. I guess 150% profit in the past 18 months is lowballing it for you, whereas if I were squeezing every cent on each card out of it, I could have made possibly 200%, I guess I don't know what I'm doing.
The main point I have made all along is this, I'm glad you brought it back up. You and I absolutely agree that the vast majority of the time PSA gets it right within a small tolerance of grade, but those other times where your having a 3 point spread, that is unacceptable and does need to be addressed.
<< <i>
The main point I have made all along is this, I'm glad you brought it back up. You and I absolutely agree that the vast majority of the time PSA gets it right within a small tolerance of grade, but those other times where your having a 3 point spread, that is unacceptable and does need to be addressed. >>
So address it to PSA, take your examples to them and ask them why. If you have looked at cards that appear to be 3 grades nicer than the grade, there is usually a fatal flaw (hairline crease, glue stain, etc). You can read PSA's grading standards to understand what exactly each flaw can warrant. When they go back, and that flaw is either no longer present, or in the opinion of the 2nd grader is not bad enough to earn the card the lower grade it will be upgraded. Everything minus centering is determined by levels of..Levels of wear on the corners, edges, gloss..Levels of print spots/defects. It's up to the grader to decide where the card falls on the scale. SOMETIMES, cards can fall within a multitude of ranges..You are dealing with cardboard, and one cards trash is another cards treasure so to speak.
It's not up to me to babysit the thousands of collectors out there who buy low end cards for high end price. Sorry, I am NOT a liberal thinker, and each person is responsible for their own knowledge base. Should I blame the government for not paying for my college without first joining the military? Should I blame your parents for not telling my parents to save wisely so their child would have college money ready when they graduated high school? I mean you could go on forever and about all things. The bottom line is if you have a problem, which it seems that you do, take it up with the source. Don't come on a message board and attempt to "sell" other collectors to do it for you. i don;t have a problem with the system. I don't mind that sometimes cards are misgraded. I get that its an opinion based system, so I educated myself on what to look for and what PSA looks for. It has saved me A LOT of money as I can buy a PSA 9 card for a PSA 8 price+ resub fee. I don't always win either. I've had my share of cards come back lower graded as well. It's just part of the game.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I must be living in a bizzaro world, all this coming from a coin guy.
Unfreakingunbeliavable.
I have now heard it all.
And this was a nice debate until the coin guy started in with the name calling.
Steve
I can assume by your non-response you are happier with buying the vastly undergraded cards and profiting off of them than worrying about the greater good for the card community and actively discussing this issue with PSA so all their graders are more in line together.
and that does not happen with coins huh Drew?
Speaking of non-response I asked you a question earlier and you seem to have blown it off.
I asked: Have you ever heard of a coin going from AU58 to MS 63?
Or a 63 go to 65?
Steve
<< <i>So address it to PSA, take your examples to them and ask them why. If you have looked at cards that appear to be 3 grades nicer than the grade, there is usually a fatal flaw (hairline crease, glue stain, etc). You can read PSA's grading standards to understand what exactly each flaw can warrant. When they go back, and that flaw is either no longer present, or in the opinion of the 2nd grader is not bad enough to earn the card the lower grade it will be upgraded. Everything minus centering is determined by levels of..Levels of wear on the corners, edges, gloss..Levels of print spots/defects. It's up to the grader to decide where the card falls on the scale. SOMETIMES, cards can fall within a multitude of ranges..You are dealing with cardboard, and one cards trash is another cards treasure so to speak.
It's not up to me to babysit the thousands of collectors out there who buy low end cards for high end price. Sorry, I am NOT a liberal thinker, and each person is responsible for their own knowledge base. Should I blame the government for not paying for my college without first joining the military? Should I blame your parents for not telling my parents to save wisely so their child would have college money ready when they graduated high school? I mean you could go on forever and about all things. The bottom line is if you have a problem, which it seems that you do, take it up with the source. Don't come on a message board and attempt to "sell" other collectors to do it for you. i don;t have a problem with the system. I don't mind that sometimes cards are misgraded. I get that its an opinion based system, so I educated myself on what to look for and what PSA looks for. It has saved me A LOT of money as I can buy a PSA 9 card for a PSA 8 price+ resub fee. I don't always win either. I've had my share of cards come back lower graded as well. It's just part of the game.
Jason >>
Jason:
Sorry for the poor choice of words, but in this case, you may be best off to "cut and run." Unless, of course, you have endless hours to bantar back and forth about something that appears to now be a matter of semantics.
Drew has his opinon, you have yours . . . heck, I even have mine! Luckily, no blood was spilled. Continue to do what you do best and I'm sure Drew will continue to do what he does best. Its no skin off anyone's nose . . . just a few hundred keystrokes and NOTHING was accomplished (kinda like talking to my wife).
<< <i>
Drew has his opinon, you have yours . . . heck, I even have mine! Luckily, no blood was spilled. Continue to do what you do best and I'm sure Drew will continue to do what he does best. Its no skin off anyone's nose . . . just a few hundred keystrokes and NOTHING was accomplished (kinda like talking to my wife). >>
Your wife too????lol
Hey, I had some time to kill on a Monday off work...No harm, no foul here...I don't think there is anything left for me to add really, I've pretty much stated my case to try and give an objective view. I'm not the authority, I'm no different than anyone else who posts here or has experience with graded cards. I'm not anyones spokesman, and I don't work for PSA...lol
Simply call them as I see them. I apologize if my numerous posts gave anyone a headache. I'm not an aggresive guy, but when I attacked i will defend my stance to no end...Just in my nature...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I can assume by your non-response you are happier with buying the vastly undergraded cards and profiting off of them than worrying about the greater good for the card community and actively discussing this issue with PSA so all their graders are more in line together.
and that does not happen with coins huh Drew?
Speaking of non-response I asked you a question earlier and you seem to have blown it off.
I asked: Have you ever heard of a coin going from AU58 to MS 63?
Or a 63 go to 65?
Steve >>
I already answered that question on the previous page, here it is again for you.
Steve, I have examined over one million coins personally graded and encapsulated in respected third party grading services holders', and have no hesitation to say what I have saw from PSA's inconsistencies, and that's not to leave SGC or BGS out either, they are not even close to the consistency in coin grading. The times coins will change two points or more, at the same grading company, especially considering your example of 64 to 66, is minute to the bumps that are possible with card grading.
I got to the part about your claim of examining a million coins and did not fully grasp anything else of it.
So the answer was yes I think?
<< <i>so if the same card can go from a 6 to 7 to an 8. please tell me how they can accurately determine on a 0.5 scale. >>
Bingo!
<< <i>Yeah I saw that reply, I guess I was looking for a simple yes or no.
I got to the part about your claim of examining a million coins and did not fully grasp anything else of it.
So the answer was yes I think? >>
you have quite a limited view of the coin business if you think a simple yes or no question is a sufficient answer. For classic U.S. type coinage and all 19th and 18th century coinage, for a coin to go from AU58 to MS63 or from MS63 to MS65 or MS64 to MS66, all of which you have asked about, the answer is less than one in a 10,000, maybe even 20,000 shot, and those estimates are low if anything.
<< <i>
you have quite a limited view of the coin business if you think a simple yes or no question is a sufficient answer. For classic U.S. type coinage and all 19th and 18th century coinage, for a coin to go from AU58 to MS63 or from MS63 to MS65 or MS64 to MS66, all of which you have asked about, the answer is less than one in a 10,000, maybe even 20,000 shot, and those estimates are low if anything. >>
Drew do those numbers include coins that are doctored before being resubmitted? From what I read over on the coin forum, sounds like there are MAJOR doctoring issues in the coin side. I don't know ANYTHING about coins, but I feel PSA does a fairly descent job of catching card alterations. Cardboard has got to be easier to catch in most cases vs. metal coins.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I have not looked at a million though.
Steve