Are Sacs next in line for a run up in prices.
Dennisl
Posts: 547
Will Sacs be next in line for reocrd prices. Recently we have seen a 1977-D Pop 3 Ike Dollar bring $6000+ in a Heritage auction. Shortly after that all high grade Ikes exploded in price. Yesterday we saw a 1999-P Pop 1 SBA Dollar bring $5700. Now Tad of Supercoin has a 2000-P MS69 Goodacre listed on his website for $4700. Sacs are commanding some rather high prices at present. Here are some confirmed transactions and known legitimate offers made on Sacs in the last few months. The last one listed is the coin currently for sale by Tad of Supercoin. It seems that more and more dealers are beginning to take moderns seriously with the prices they are commmanding. Everyone was giving Mitch a difficult time about the prices of modern coins but it seems more and more dealers are jumping on his bandwagon and more will follow with these record prices.
1. 2000-P MS69 $2500 Pop 6
2. 2001-P MS69 $3500 Pop 4
3. 2001-D MS68 $1400 Pop 1
4. 2000-P MS69 Goodacre $4700 Pop 1
1. 2000-P MS69 $2500 Pop 6
2. 2001-P MS69 $3500 Pop 4
3. 2001-D MS68 $1400 Pop 1
4. 2000-P MS69 Goodacre $4700 Pop 1
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Comments
My Comments On Another Thread:
DRG: I'll tell you the big problem, imho, with the modern dollar coins (Ikes, SBA, Sac). Dennis, Tad, Colorman3 please chime in and let me know if you agree. Quality is often the issue. First, we all know about the "perfect" Ike proofs. PR69DCAM coins might be worth $100 or $200. A "true" perfect PR70DCAM might be worth $10,000-right? But, who has one? The PR70DCAM I have seen come between these points, which explains why they often are offered retail at no more than $2500-$3500. Right?
Second, I personally owned (3) of the MS68 SBA coins from 1979-1980 a few years back. The quality was so disappointing to me on one of them (and I won't say which one to not offend that owner today) that, at first, I returned it instead of pay around $500 as I recall. Later, I took it, as a collector insisted he wanted it anyway. At least one other of the early MS68 coins I was also personally unimpressed with. In other words, and I believe Tad can confirm this position, several of the MS68 coins were "squeekers".
Third, the Sacs. I have only handled -1- MS69 so far and it was nice. But, on a general note, I am personally concerned about two thing. First, the metal "turning". Do we know for sure that these coins won't spot over the next 5 years or change colors? Second (and perhaps #1 point here draws into this), the quality of the undergrade coins is amazing!! I have 2001(d) Sacs in MS66 holders that are "no brainer" MS67 or better imho!! I have many 2000(d) MS67 coins that are "no brainer" MS68 etc. I just won't pay for the upgrade fees at this point, but if these coins were to rise sharply, the coins would go right back to PCGS.
Just my personal thoughts TODAY. Down the road, some of my concerns may change, one way or the other. But, today these are some of the reasons the dollar coins may be peaking out. And, by peaking out, this is not to say they haven't performed incredibly well! DRG turned down $10k for an MS68 I think he mentioned. My point is, imho, I don't believe $15k is around the corner Wondercoin.
I already own a 2001-P MS69 Sac and I didn't pay any where near the last known selling price. Just becuase I am not willing to pay that price, doesn't mean someone else isn't willing to pay $4000. Just like the SBA that sold for $5700. I tried to place a bid for $5400 on the coin. That is what is was worth to me. Someone else obviously placed more value on it than me and they are the new owner of the coin. And this is a new record for a SBA dollar.
We have seen state quarters run up in price and then pull back. I am still seeing some of the lower pop state quarters coming down in price. Right now we are seeing Ikes, SBAs and Sacs run up in price. We will have to take a wait and see attitude since there has not been a pull back in prices on these coins yet. I do believe that Dr. Golan said he had an offer of $10,000 for his Pop 1 1979-P MS68 SBA. That would be a new record price for an SBA. I was offered $5000 for my one of my SBAs by a dealer just last week and it is a Pop 8 coin. I can also guarantee that anyone making a 1981-S in MS68 will get $10,000 +++ for the coin. I would also bet that anyone making a 1971-P or 1972-P Ike in MS67 will fetch a new record price for Ikes. Only time will tell if these records will stay records or be broken and never obtained again.
Re: Color changes in the Sacs, I have seen it. Right when the first Savs were graded, I bought a MS-67 2000-P from you, which had some mild spotting, common for the early issues. When I upgraded last fall and got a MS-68, I noticed that the 67 had developed a very deep golden toning in the holder, to the point that the original spotting was no longer invisible, but had been absorbed. This coin scares me, in that the possibility of the metal changing on you is very real. Hasn't been enough time to see what these coins will be as far as long term eye appeal and toning.
Keith
I guess if this happens, PCGS will be buying back a few coins. PCGS bought back one of my 1972-S PR70DCAM Ikes that no longer made the grade. Worse case senario is I get my money back.
Mitch,
I am still a buyer in the $5000+ range for any of the MS67 CN Clad Ikes that I need.
1. Dennis confirmed my potential problem with high grade Ikes
2. Keith confirmed my potential problem with high grade Sacs
Anyone want to confirm my concerns with SBA's?
Seriously, Dennis' lack of interest in buying a second "mega-grade" Sac around the "current market price" is very telling to me, imho, because Dennis would NEVER have passed up a double finest known MS Ike he already had in his collection if offered to him (I am wrong here Dennis?)
Also, I am not aware of any dealer that is "supporting" the Sac market with strong buy/sell prices on these super high grade coins. For example, if these MS69 coins were really worth $3500-$4000 today, I would be bidding $3000-$3250 to buy every one I could get my hands on-right? So would Dennis and every other Sac enthusiast-right? But, I don't see this happening right now. This is why I would personally conclude that $3500 would be a potential "peak" price for now on that Sac, rather than a "floor" on which we would see these rising prices some have asserted are coming. Just my humble opinions.
I confirmed a problem with high grade PROOF Ikes, not high grade Mint State Ikes. Lately every MS67 CN Clad Ike that I have seen come on the market has been at a record price. I am still offering record prices for MS67 CN CLad Ikes. Find me one of the Ikes that I need and we will set another record price for that date/mint mark Ike, guaranteed.
As far as the Sacs are concerned, I have been trying to buy a 2000-P in MS69 (Pop6). I have not been able to locate one and have been unsuccessful in attempts to buy one. I am not trying to complete a second set right now. I started a second Ike set a long time ago and will continue to work on that set. I am also working on at least 5 other sets at present and do no want to spend funds on a "second "mega-grade" Sac around the "current market price" I would rather save my funds for a high end coin for one of my active sets.
Interestingly, the coin that toned in the holder ended up looking better than when I purchased it. Another year down the road, and who knows. But the color deepened from the bright color of the mint sets to a very deep orange color in l8 months time. Ended up looking the deeper color of the modern gold commems with the orange toning that many of them develop. My concern is that given more time, the colors will deepen to a color that will not be attractive.
Mitch,
Ship me a MS-68 Susie and I'll see if I agree to its quality
Keith
They coin is better than when I sold it to you. That's a first. I have never heard that one before. I guess I should ask you for more money since the coin has more eye appeal now than it did when I sold it to you.
Now that Supercoin has his MS69 Goodacre on Ebay it will be interesting to see what it brings. Right now it is not a required coin in the registry. I think if I owned it, I would be lobbying PCGS to add it as a required coin and then watch what kind of price it would commnand.
SBAs got very little respect when they first came out. Now look, $5700. I think Sacs will do the same thing in years to come. MS69s will always be difficult to find in circulating coinage.
Dennis: Of course, Goodacres did not "circulate".
I thought Keith bought the coin that looks better now from me
Wondercoin.
I did get the coin from you, but "looking better" isn't saying much for a Sac dollar
I think Sacs will become highly collectible in high grade because the coin series is another failure. They don't circulate, and are only used as subway tokens. This will be another short-lived coin unless the Federal Reserve takes the one dollar coin out of circulation.
Keith
Can you find me a MS69 2000-P Sac?
I disagree with your comment about worrying about an MS69 Sac turning "bad" in the holder, other than perhaps some of the early releases that had gold spots on them from a chemical wash at the mint, I don't know if any of those made it into MS69 holders though. In any case, as has been pointed out, PCGS will guarantee them if they do go bad. This is presuming that PCGS is still around, but anyone paying big bucks for a super-grade condition-rarity in a PCGS holder had better already be comfortable assuming that risk.
I agree with your comments about the vast majority of PR70 Ikes, and at least a couple of the MS68 SBAs. For some of those coins, I wouldn't call them squeakers, they are simply overgraded in the face of current standards. I have yet to see a PR70 Ike, for example, that deserves the grade. However, I don't see how that is an argument against the whole series.
I don't think there's any argument that Ikes in particular, of all clad series, have the longest history of sustained interest and genuine condition rarity of key dates. And, they become condition-rare without requiring an extreme grade of MS68 like this SBA, or, hmm... a state quarter.
Regarding the Goodacre MS69, no they did not circulate, but they were also not released like modern commems or proof sets, i.e. double-struck and released in individual capsules. They were struck on regular dies and released in rolls. In other words, you're not going to see an MS70s made (now taking bets if you disagree). Further, my *guess*, and why I will not sell the coin unless I can get a high price for it, is that the MS69 grade will be like a PR70 grade somewhere else, i.e. very few will be awarded what is an "ultimate" attainable grade. And as pointed out, the premium on a percentage basis over typical condition is far less than most other highest-grade moderns. Oh yeah, and the coin is pretty nice too.