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(Formerly Mark McGwire signed photo thread) - Ozzie Smith plus other HOF signatures. Scans added.

Thanks to all who have put in their input on the McGwire signed baseball thread. I was wondering if I could get some objective opinions on this signed photo.

Here is a closeup of the auto and a full size scan of the photo.


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Shane

Comments

  • Uh, you already posted this in your other thread so I am not sure why you started a whole new thread.

    Fake just like your ball.
  • frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I posted it because there may be some that don't go back to that thread.

    Thanks for the input.

    Shane

  • not even close to being real. Is this from the same guy?
  • frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, it is from the same guy. I hope you guys are wrong, but you seem to know what you are talking about. It's just so frustrating. You know, if I looked at that 1987 Donruss PSA/DNA (that I linked to in the other thread) without it being in a PSA holder, I would have said that there is no way that it is a real sig, and I'm not even close to being an expert on McGwire. Thanks again. I'm not having a good day.

    Shane

  • As I mentioned in the other thread, I have never seen a McGwire sig where the tail draws back like that.

    If a person is going to forge a sig, at least make an attempt to make it look real.
  • frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    MacMuseum,

    (I promise that this is asked in a very sincere way) - would you please educate me on this? I can tell that you are very sure that this one is fake. How do you tell (not just on McGwire) that it wasn't just done in a hurry or done sloppy? I know if I signed autographs alot, if I was sitting at a table in an ideal situation, it would be very consisten. However, if I'm in a hurry, or walking while signing, it would vary greatly. Am I right, or way off? It this a situation where you can point of different individual things wrong about this signature, or is it just not right by looking at the whole thing? Thanks.

    Shane

  • I'd be interested in seeing the scans of the other stuff you bought as well.
  • I hear you, it definitely sucks. I have many many McGwire autos, and have been collecting them for 20 years. I would put my life on the line that both of those are fake, and neither of them are really close (especially the 8 x 10) once you know what to look for. The ball is actually farther off than you would think. I dont know where he's saying he got the 8 x 10, but Im guessing it was from eBay. I have seen that same forged signature many, many times on a couple different Cardinals items over the past 5-6 years. Before you purchase any more Mcgwire autos feel free to shoot me a pm. This guy probably doesnt have even 1 that is real.


  • << <i>MacMuseum,

    (I promise that this is asked in a very sincere way) - would you please educate me on this? I can tell that you are very sure that this one is fake. How do you tell (not just on McGwire) that it wasn't just done in a hurry or done sloppy? I know if I signed autographs alot, if I was sitting at a table in an ideal situation, it would be very consisten. However, if I'm in a hurry, or walking while signing, it would vary greatly. Am I right, or way off? It this a situation where you can point of different individual things wrong about this signature, or is it just not right by looking at the whole thing? Thanks. >>




    Just read this after I replied. I will show you whats wrong with the ball with some pictures and explanations. The 8 x 10, I wont. Lets just say the 8 x 10 is as far away as you can get. McGwire changed his signature about 4-5 times, but every example of his signatures are VERY consistent to each other within the different eras.

    Edited to add that it'll take me a moment to get the pics up. Also, I know what youre saying if he "was in a hurry", but McGwire always took time signing his autograph. If he was in a hurry, you will see a "ballpark" signature, but the full auto is never sloppy
  • frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks guys. Like I said, earlier, he is a friend of Ozzie Smith. He didn't get either one from Ebay. He got them both from Ozzie Smith. This man installed a spa in Ozzie's bathroom and has done different things for him in the past, along with promoting him at speaking engagements and autograph signings. He got the baseball from Ozzie in 1998 and the photo from Ozzie in 1999.

    He has also promoted shows with Don Mattingly and Brooks Robinson.

    Here are some of the things that I got from him. Let me know what you would like to see (and what you SHOULD see).

    Don Mattingly signed baseball
    Eddie Mathews signed baseball
    Warren Spahn signed baseball
    Willie Stargell signed baseball (2)
    Duke Snider signed baseball
    Alex Rodriguez signed baseball (this one came from Ebay and I have my doubts about it after research)

    Willie Mays signed photo
    Catfish Hunter signed HOF plaque
    Bobby Doerr signed HOF plaque
    Rick Ferrel signed HOF plaque
    Don Drysdale signed HOF plaque
    Carl Hubbell signed HOF plaque
    Early Wynn signed HOF plaque
    Luke Appling signed HOF plaque
    Cool Papa Bell signed Perez Steele
    A. B. Happy Chander signed Perez Steele
    Charlie Gehringer signed photo in frame (came directly from Ozzie Smith's house)
    Joe "Ducky" Medwick signed index card (cut sig pasted next to a picture of him).
    Ozzie Smith signed instructional video
    Ozzie Smith commemorative farewell season calendar book signed in silver sharpie (very nice - looks like a high school yearbook)
    Ozzie Smith signed photo (awesome photo of him diving for a ball)

    I could have gotten tons more Ozzie signed stuff.

    Shane

  • I'm indifferent in regards to what you show. However, considering what's going on, I think you'd be wise to get some feedback on some of the stuff.
  • My apologies if this sounds harsh, but have you ever seen any pictures of your friend with any of these athletes?
  • joestalinjoestalin Posts: 12,473 ✭✭
    that isn't even close to being real. There are a few UDA cards from 03 I think. Might be better in the long run to own one of those
    and call it a day. Mac stuff is very hard to find certified

    Kevin
  • stownstown Posts: 11,321 ✭✭✭
    Sorry to say but looks fake to me.

    Wonder if Ozzy knows this "friend" is selling off items he personally, allegedly, got.

    Hmmm...
    So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
  • frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>My apologies if this sounds harsh, but have you ever seen any pictures of your friend with any of these athletes? >>



    Yes, I have seen pictures of him with Ozzie, Brooks Robinson, and Don Mattingly. Brooks Robinson did a commercial for his business back a few years ago, and I saw a picture of them shooting it. I have seen invoices and copies of checks from Ozzie Smith. One copy of a check that he showed me to his business was signed "Osborne E. Smith". I thought that was neat. The commemorative signed book that I have is one that he and Ozzie did together. They had 700 published to give out to different people in St Louis. My friend kept approximately 100 of them.

    Stown, I don't think it would matter to Ozzie. As a matter of fact, he had some game used bats signed by Ozzie and Ozzie signed an authentication certificate knowing that they would be sold.


    I will post some pictures tonight when I get home.

    Shane

  • OK heres a vague timeline of Mark's signatures. I hope you can spot the points I try to make.

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    This is McGwires earliest signature (besides his 1982 Anchorage Pilots days). You will likely find this on his 1985 Topps, both his 1986 cards, the 1987 Barry Colla Rookie photos, and 1987 cards that were actually signed in/before 1987. (photo taken from one of the PSA/DNA links provided)


    image

    Here's his first change in his autograph. Notice its more "fluid" and rounded in spots, the absence of the "r" in Mark, and the "g" is now an elongated oval.(Photo taken from PSA/DNA eBay auction)

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    Notice how close they look even though 2 different pens were used, and on 2 different surfaces. (Photo from personal collection)

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    Heres the next change. First notice the loops in "Mark". They become more round and symmetrical, and the second loop is ALWAYS bigger than the first. Also notice the 'g' again. It now comes pretty much straight down before looping up.(This I got signed in person, on the back of a business card as he left his/my brothers eye doctor.)

    Two more examples, both from personal collection:

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    Pulled From 1992 Barry Colla Set


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    Bought from McGwires agent's shop, Talkin' Baseball, in the 90's when I lived in California.

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    This is a "ballpark sig" that he starting using in spring training of 1996. He would also use it at the ballpark up through the end 1997 season. This is a sig you will see if he is in a hurry. (photo from PSA/DNA link provided)

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    Here is another ballpark sig. This was used from 1998-2002 after he became hugely popular with the fans. Very rare to see a full signature from this era unless it was acquaintance or was caught away from the ballpark, excluding the Steiner Deal and UD deal.

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    This is what McGwires full sig looks like today. Notice it is pretty much unchanged for the past decade, except for the "a" in Mark usually has no circle, its almost a spot, a sharper point at the bottom of the 'g', and now the huge loop isn't symmetrical in "Mark", it is now always higher on the right side.(photo from personal collection)


    Theres many things to point out about thats wrong with the ball you bought, because for the most part none of the sections are correct. A really easy one to spot is the forger came from behind the "a" in Mark. If you notice he always leads into the "a" from the front. With the pictures I provided I hope you can now spot the MANY inconsistencies with the ball. The "M" in Mark is not looped enough, the Huge loop 'leans backwards' and the tail is too long and doesnt loop upwards, the second "M" is in the shape of a "w" (Mcgwires M's look like w's, but they dont have the shape of a w), and the "g" is way off as Im sure you'll now be able to see.

    image



    Hope this helps. let me know if you have any other questions


  • frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow, you have done your homework. I am impressed. Well, I don't see that there is any sense in blowing the money to send them in to PSA DNA. I will just take them back. I am sure he will make it right.

    Shane

  • MooseDogMooseDog Posts: 1,946 ✭✭✭
    For what it's worth, I'll add to the "no way" votes on the Cards 8x10.
  • frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I forgot that I already had some of the baseballs uploaded to photobucket. I can go ahead and post those. The photos will have to be scanned this evening. I will post them then.

    Here are the baseballs. Again, I have some doubts on the A Rod. He got it off of Ebay.

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    Shane

  • stownstown Posts: 11,321 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Stown, I don't think it would matter to Ozzie. As a matter of fact, he had some game used bats signed by Ozzie and Ozzie signed an authentication certificate knowing that they would be sold. >>



    I assume that Ozzy got paid for the things he authenticated.

    Playing devil's advocate, I'm guessing the friend used that as leverage to gain confidence in the other items he was selling.
    So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
  • frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, I said I would scan some of the stuff that I got this week. Before I knew it, I had scanned everything. So, this is every single item that I got except for the second Stargell signed baseball. I paid $450 for the whole lot, but keep in mind that he said I could return anything that I wasn't satisfied with in exchange for other things. He even said he would give me some money back if I wasn't satisfied with something. He just lives about 45 minutes away from me. It looks as though I will be returning the 2 McGwire autos and probably the ARod, unless someone on here can convince me that it is the real thing. In my opinion, everything else looks good. What do y'all think?

    I will start with some things that are not signed. He gave me some copies just to have because I thought that they were neat.

    First, we have a copy of a check that Ozzie wrote to Paul's business.

    image


    Next we have a copy of a photograph of Ozzie in his trophy room. Take a look at all of those gold gloves. This photo is in the commemorative book a few pictures down.

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    Next is a signed SI by Ozzie.

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    Next is a signed photo of Ozzie at his best.

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    Next is the cover of the commemorative book signed in silver sharpie.

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    Next is a COA that Paul's business, along with Ozzie issued for the auto on the commemorative book.

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    Next are a few signed HOF plaque cards.

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    Next is a Joe "Ducky" Medwick signature.

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    Next is a Charlie Gehringer signed photo that came from Ozzie Smith.

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    Next is a Willie Mays photo with a close up of the signature following.

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    And finally, here is a video that was signed by Ozzie with the signed COA following. He had several of these. All of them were still sealed like this one, except for the plastic that was neatly cut away so he could sign it.

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    Shane

  • zep33zep33 Posts: 6,897 ✭✭✭
    very cool stuff - enjoyed looking at it
  • Tedw9Tedw9 Posts: 1,424 ✭✭
    Wow, killer autographs! $450 for the lot seems like a dam good deal. Thanks for sharing with us. image
    Looking for Carl Willey items.
  • Glad to say these all look good! Just make sure to bring back the Mac's, and probably the A-Rod ball.
  • rube26105rube26105 Posts: 10,225 ✭✭
    now that im getting back into signed baseballs om my ttm thread , i want the ted williams i sold on here back image
  • zep33zep33 Posts: 6,897 ✭✭✭
    I got a Ted Williams ball I got in person as a kid at his baseball camp
  • BobSBobS Posts: 1,738 ✭✭
    That's what I call a breakdown.

    Awesome.
  • frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One thing that I have a question about - when did Sharpies come out? That Joe Medwick looks as real as it gets, but he died in 1975. If "Sharpies" weren't out then, I guess it could have been signed with some kind of magic marker or something like that.

    Also, I would love for you Mays experts to chime in out the Willie Mays auto. I have researched it, and it looks very real to me, though I am not an expert. Would it be worth sending it in to PSA DNA?

    Shane

  • IronmanfanIronmanfan Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>One thing that I have a question about - when did Sharpies come out? That Joe Medwick looks as real as it gets, but he died in 1975. If "Sharpies" weren't out then, I guess it could have been signed with some kind of magic marker or something like that.

    Also, I would love for you Mays experts to chime in out the Willie Mays auto. I have researched it, and it looks very real to me, though I am not an expert. Would it be worth sending it in to PSA DNA? >>



    I think if you go to Sharpie's web-site, you'll see their company history. The Mays looks good to me.
    Successful dealings with Wcsportscards94558, EagleEyeKid, SamsGirl214, Volver, DwayneDrain, Oaksey25, Griffins, Cardfan07, Etc.
  • frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks. I should have thought of that. The Sharpie marker was put out in 1964.

    Shane

  • nice stuff shane looks like a steal for $450!

    hope that Mcgwire stuff pans out.....keep us updated
  • GREAT stuff! Love that trophy room picture.
    White Whales:
    1996 Select Certified Mirror Gold Ozzie Smith
    2006 Bowman Chrome Orange Refractor Chris Carpenter
  • frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks. I have some good feedback on the Mays. Do you guys think I should fork out (hold on let me go to PSA DNA to see how much Mays is)............ $20 to send it to PSA DNA? Never mind, $20 is a no brainer, I think.

    Let me just ask this - if you guys were going to sell some of this, what things would you send to PSA DNA and it being financially sound? I am thinking the Mays, Stargell baseball, Mattingly baseball, and possible the Medwick. Thoughts?

    Shane

  • IronmanfanIronmanfan Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭✭
    Since the Stargell is obviously legit and not really a high target forgery item, I'd save my money on him, but the other ones you listed (including Mays), I would send in for authentication. Good Luck!!
    Successful dealings with Wcsportscards94558, EagleEyeKid, SamsGirl214, Volver, DwayneDrain, Oaksey25, Griffins, Cardfan07, Etc.
  • frankhardyfrankhardy Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can't believe that I forgot these three things. I was looking through all of that stuff and remembered that I didn't scan these. So, here they are... HOF'er Luke Appling, HOF'er Cool Papa Bell, and HOF'er / Commissioner / Governor of KY, A. B. "Happy" Chandler.

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    Shane

  • Very nice items. I don't have a mays signature, but your Matthews and Snider look tight on.

    J
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