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So Much For The PSA Set Registry

And for all those people paying big bucks for low pop commons, the rules have changed.image

Comments

  • 262Runner262Runner Posts: 606 ✭✭✭
    The POP reports have just become totally useless. With as many crack and re-subs that are going to happen for 7's and 8's, I will not even pay attention the pop report unless it's a 9 or 10!

    Edited for spelling

    Collecting all cards - Gus Zernial
    Post Cereal both raw and PSA Graded (1961-1963)

  • hankcaddyhankcaddy Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭✭✭
    probably add all the 7 , 7.5 , 8 ,and 8.5 to get a clue, true data is going to be lost with all resubs making a brutal hobby even tougher
    currently collecting baseball of
    2004 spx
    1989 topps psa 10
    1959 phillies
    Phillies of the 70's
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Cards bumping up in the holder will be reflected in the pops. So i'm not sure what you mean. Secondly, crackouts have always skewed the pops.


    Steve

    Good for you.
  • JonBJonB Posts: 495
    Yes, but this will create many, many more crackouts...

    Other than for 9's and 10's, the pop report isn't acurate at all... I am by no means a big time collector, and haven't done a whole lot of collecting in the past year at all, but even I have a stack of 20-30 flips at home... multiply that by a few thousand people, most of which have a whole lot more than myself... thats a lot of inacuracy...

    As for the registry... it is total trash now, and I mean pure trash... who in their right mind would spend $5,000+ to get a 60's or 70's set regraded just hoping to bump their GPA maybe .1-.2? But yet for people just starting the sets, and buying newly graded cards with that extra .5 (even though every single card in the other guys set might be worthly of an extra .5) the new guy will be far ahead.

    ... AND YES, there are collectors out there who have built complete sets with a GPA of 8.0, that would probably convert to something in the 8.45 area because they were so darn picky when buying their 8's... man I feel SO sorry for those people.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Yes, but this will create many, many more crackouts...


    How so? if you crack it out you run the risk of a down grade. leaving it in the holder a card can only go up.

    Steve
    Good for you.
  • JonBJonB Posts: 495
    Yes, and thats the way its always been... and yet people have always cracked and resubmitted haven't they? Now they have yet another reason to do so.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Jon

    why would anyone crackout a card if they are looking for a .5 bump (or for that matter a full grade bump) when they run no risk of a downgrade under this new policy?


    Steve

    Good for you.
  • gaspipe26gaspipe26 Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭
    If your worth your salt at grading a downgrade shouldnt come into play. Believe it, there will be many holder submissions but many crackouts too.
  • JonBJonB Posts: 495
    Gaspipe is correct... and its not just me, everyone cracks... and why would you crack? lets take for example a PSA 7 card that is worth $5000, and might come back as a 7.5, or perhaps even an 8... more than likely the increase in the card's worth would make it would resubmitting, but whether or not to crack and then resubmit, or just to have them "review" it, is up to the owner...

    personally I crack, I feel that if a PSA employee is looking at your card that has already been holdered, he is less likely to bump it because he will be admitting they messed up the first time... plus, if he doesn't bump it, there is the possibility that you, or another owner later on will resubmit it yet again and they will make more grading fees...

    if you crack it and resubmit it, then they will put it in a new holder all together, with a fresh grade (whethere or not it ends up being the same, its a totally new grade, not a "review")... of course that is assuming that the card that was just pulled out of a PSA holder doesn't come back as "evid of trimming" which is purely the biggest scam in the world... then you have to pay to submit it yet a 3rd time, just to get it back into a holder, because PSA's subjective view was that the first time they graded it, it wasn't trimmed, although somehow while it was inside a PSA holder it became trimmed (unless of course the mail man or UPS guy took it out of the package and trimmed it while it was on its way back to PSA for the cracked resub, lmao)... eithere way, PSA MAKES MORE MONEY, and in that case 3 times more money
  • JonBJonB Posts: 495
    Steve...

    refer to my previous post from just a second ago
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Still doesn't address my question, why would anyone crackout a card when they run the risk of a downgrade?

    Crackouts cheaper to submit?

    I don't get it.

    And you could be the best grader in the world if PSA does not agree with you then what?


    Steve


    Good for you.
  • 19541954 Posts: 2,898 ✭✭✭
    this is so stupid. Now that you have PSA doing the "bumping", the pop. report will still be correct.
    Jon B said "Yes, but this will create many, many more crackouts..."
    Jon- seriously, can you read? This has nothing to do with a mass crack out by the collectors. Collectors have always cracked out cards from the holders and resubmitted. This idea of PSA will NOT affect the pop report. The population will be corrected when PSA reviews the card and PSA deems it for an upgrade.
    Wow, amazing.

    Shane

    Steve, you are a 100% right.
    Looking for high grade rookie cards and unopened boxes/cases
  • JonBJonB Posts: 495
    Shane...

    How can you think that? People have always been cracking cards for the past 10 years, heck, the pop report is already WAY off on 100's of cards, if not 1000's... this is just another reason for people to crack them...

    And they will be cracked for the same reason people have always cracked cards. PSA is more likely to give a "bump" to a card they perceive as a first time grade, rather than being biased during a "review" of a slabbed card that they have already graded. If PSA bumps during a review process two things happen: First, they have to admit they were wrong during the first grading of the card. Secondly, it costs them more money. Instead of just saying "the card is going to thay an 8" and then leaving it in the same holder, they then have to spend the time to remove it from the holder (plus they risk damaging the card in this process more-so than when they handle an unslabbed card), spend money on a new holder, new flip, enter the new serial number in the database, and spend the man time to do all of that... that is why people crack instead of using the "review" process... because it is simply a less biased process... afterall, grading is subjective, that is why we have 7's cracked that come back as 9's, and 8's that come back as "evid of trimming"
  • 19541954 Posts: 2,898 ✭✭✭
    Jon
    Regardless of what PSA implements for grading, the crackouts by individuals will not change. I have always cracked out cards that I did not agree with and resubmitted. Out of courtesy for other collector, I have always sent the slips back in. PSA's decision to grade on a .5 system may have an affect on crackouts where people might go to SGC, but not to have them regraded by PSA. That would be the only reason for the pop to be changed.

    SL
    Looking for high grade rookie cards and unopened boxes/cases
  • JonBJonB Posts: 495
    Well we will just have to agree to disagree then Shane... I know I need to send in my flips, and someday I will. But like me, I have to imagine there are collectors out there with 1000's of flips laying around, or ones that have been trashed (afterall, what good does it do to crack a card and then send the loose flips back to PSA with your order, lol). The only thing the pop report is fairly acurate about are 9's and 10's... more so the 10's. Although, I know several people (including myself) who have had PSA 10's totally demolished in shipping... so even those are slightly off... One of the funniest things (and sad) I saw was several years back, Jeff had a PSA 10 card in his Ryan Registry set that was (at the time) a fairly rare card to have in PSA 10, and when he received it the PSA holder was probably in 20 pieces. He used to have that card listed in his set with a picture of the smashed holder with the card still wedged inside it, lol

    I would venture to say that the PSA 7 and 8 pops for the 50's and the tougher cards from the 60's are by far the more inacurate. I know of... ok I am just going to use an example here to protect the card value and identity of the person... for example, has a pop of about 30 in PSA 8, and none in PSA 9 or 10, yet at least 10-15 of those 8's are from one person sending in the same two cards over and over hoping for a miracle (which would have made him at least a few thousand dollars), and I have to admit, both cards looked like a 9 to me, so I'm not really sure what PSA had against them... now tell me that doesn't kill a pop report! (btw, he obviously should have had 4SC submit those 2 cards for him, they more than likely would have both come back as 9's, perhaps even one of them as a 10, lol)
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Jon

    IN the example you give above you are correct, however this thread was started with the idea that the pops would change with the resubs. My answer and Shane's addressed that and only that. If PSA reviews a card (still in the holder) they will correct the pop.

    That is all I have been trying to say.


    Actually it was in reply to the second posters claim.


    Steve




    Good for you.
  • 262Runner262Runner Posts: 606 ✭✭✭
    I still believe that many people are going to "crack" and resubmit rather than use the review process. For example, if you have a very high end 8 in a holder, maybe you think is has a real chance at a 9, definately an 8.5, you are better off cracking that card out so you will have a chance at that 9. If you leave that card in the holder and send it to PSA for review, you best chance is only the 8.5 with no chance at a 9. I think crack-outs are going to increase on 7's & 8's because of the hope of the full point bump, if the full point is not achieved, you should at least get that .5

    Dave

    Collecting all cards - Gus Zernial
    Post Cereal both raw and PSA Graded (1961-1963)

  • I agree with Daveimage
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Actually you can get a full bump with the review process.




    Steve
    Good for you.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    if the full point is not achieved, you should at least get that .5


    remember by doing that you run the risk of cards going down, or evidence of trimming.


    Steve


    and in case you did not see my prior post, Joe has told a froum member (one I highly regard) that if the card warrants it it can indeed get a full bump.


    Good for you.
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    Its all about what you can afford and what level of risk you are willing to assume.

    For me its typically over $500 and/or something with a POP lower than 20 equal or higher I won't risk crack and re-sub. I'm sure all of us who have played the crack/resub game have had cards come back lower and or not graded at all.

    I've actually had equal success with reviews. Typically crack and resub I will get 20-25% bumps, 1-2% will get lower or not graded. With reviews I've gotten 15-20% bumps with NONE coming back lower.

    So like I said, its all about how much risk you can afford to take. The review process DOES WORK, and that is/was for FULL GRADE bumps, not half.

    My stats: I've cracked and resubbed approx. 200 cards in my time, and sent in approx. 100 using the review service. I also always send the old flips back to PSA with a subsequent order. Not sure if they ever deleted them from the POP report though.

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • 262Runner262Runner Posts: 606 ✭✭✭
    I, myself, will probably not send any cards in for review. I like my sets the way they are, I collect becuase I like the cards, I'm not usually in the running for top spot on the registry anyway.

    Dave

    Collecting all cards - Gus Zernial
    Post Cereal both raw and PSA Graded (1961-1963)

  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Me either, if i feel a card is hi end for the grade I'll do what I have always done and (if selling) I'll start the opening bid to reflect that.

    I did exactly that with some 65's I have up on ebay right now.


    I will though take advantage of the .5 grading system with what ever raw cards I send in. (meaning I am staying with PSA)

    See? it really isn't that hard.


    Steve
    Good for you.
  • "After much thought and a ton of feedback from hobbyists throughout the industry..."

    This reminds me of "New Coke".
    John G
  • I had intented to bring with me to the National in Chicago this year a small group of my PSA 8 cards from my 1948 Bowman registry set that I felt were high end 8,s that had a chance to possibly upgrade to a PSA 9. With this new system I defintely will be doing it with a slightly larger group as that 8.5 may be attainable for most of the ones I choose. I would be to much of a chicken to "Crack" these out as some have suggested because the risk of a bump down to a 7.5 or 7 is to high to chance with these vintage sets IMO.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Did anyone else notice that right after they went back to reg coke they also stopped using cane sugar too? I think part of that BS was to help them ease into the use of corn syrup.


    ahhhh do i want for the old days.


    Steve
    Good for you.


  • << <i>Gaspipe is correct... and its not just me, everyone cracks... and why would you crack? lets take for example a PSA 7 card that is worth $5000, and might come back as a 7.5, or perhaps even an 8... more than likely the increase in the card's worth would make it would resubmitting, but whether or not to crack and then resubmit, or just to have them "review" it, is up to the owner...

    personally I crack, I feel that if a PSA employee is looking at your card that has already been holdered, he is less likely to bump it because he will be admitting they messed up the first time... plus, if he doesn't bump it, there is the possibility that you, or another owner later on will resubmit it yet again and they will make more grading fees...

    if you crack it and resubmit it, then they will put it in a new holder all together, with a fresh grade (whethere or not it ends up being the same, its a totally new grade, not a "review")... of course that is assuming that the card that was just pulled out of a PSA holder doesn't come back as "evid of trimming" which is purely the biggest scam in the world... then you have to pay to submit it yet a 3rd time, just to get it back into a holder, because PSA's subjective view was that the first time they graded it, it wasn't trimmed, although somehow while it was inside a PSA holder it became trimmed (unless of course the mail man or UPS guy took it out of the package and trimmed it while it was on its way back to PSA for the cracked resub, lmao)... eithere way, PSA MAKES MORE MONEY, and in that case 3 times more money >>



    JON B your kidding right? nobody can have such screwed up logic....

    they arent admitting they were wrong, they are grading with a new scale and the card may have been graded properly the first time (PSA 8) and now it deserves (or Doesnt) a 8.5....

    did SGC release its minions to post ignorantly on these boards?
  • gaspipe26gaspipe26 Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭
    Not very many people turn in their slips when they crackout cards. Shane you would be in the minority in that aspect. The POP report is relatively accurate, and in the future it still will be relatively accurate but the POP's on alot of cards will be askew, especially on the more difficult cards from each set. Not saying it will be alot but when you are talking about Low Pop cards it could make a difference, and yes if the submitter sends the card in the holder the cards Pop will be corrected.
  • mealewormmealeworm Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭
    JON B your kidding right? nobody can have such screwed up logic....

    they arent admitting they were wrong, they are grading with a new scale and the card may have been graded properly the first time (PSA 8) and now it deserves (or Doesnt) a 8.5....

    did SGC release its minions to post ignorantly on these boards?


    I actually feel the same way and have always felt the old review was a waste of time. Now they give you hope for a .5 grade and people think they are getting full point bumps??? It all goes back to the saying I heard on here a few years back. If the grade don't fit you must RE submit. The cards will end up in the higher holders sooner or later, but at what cost?? Show PSA the money.

    Dave

    image
    1957 Topps 99% 7.40 GPA
    Hank Aaron Basic PSA 7-8(75%)
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    I have no idea what people are thinking regarding full bumps, with that said, I was told that if the card warrented it that was a possibility.


    Still I am amazed that people would still be willing to crack and submit a card when PSA has made it clear no card is in danger of going down under this plan.

    Steve


    Good for you.
  • bluemarlinbluemarlin Posts: 627 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I have no idea what people are thinking regarding full bumps, with that said, I was told that if the card warrented it that was a possibility.


    Still I am amazed that people would still be willing to crack and submit a card when PSA has made it clear no card is in danger of going down under this plan.

    Steve >>



    Yea that seems really pointless to crack out and risk a lower grade,If you have a nicely centered card you shouldnt have
    much trouble getting a bump,no need to crack it out.

    Jake
  • Fandango... I was refering to full grade bumps...

    And no, lol, I don't work for SGC, I have been a member of these boards for almost 4 years, and until this, was one of PSA's biggest fans and a VERY Loyal customer. In fact, I have only used another service twice. Once was before PSA offered pack grading, and another was about 10 years ago when I dropped a card off at Becket in person (I live about 30 minutes from them)... even with dropping the card off with them I still had a bad experience.

    PSA is very simply doing this because they think it will make them more money, and they are right.

    I loved PSA because for all these years they didn't switch to this half point thing, but instead promised... PROMISED customers that they would stick with the whole point grading system. That, and that they had obviously the best name in the hobby as far as grading goes. With this move, they have most obviously lied to all of their customers, many of whom have thousands, some even in the millions of dollars invested in cards that are housed in PSA holders.


    BTW fandango... did you read the second part of the quote that you put in bold? The part about them not bumping if you don't crack, just so you or someone else in the future will send it in for the "review" process again?

    PSA has apparently been lying to their customers for years, and apparently lied for the sole purpose of being able to screw us into having to get cards regraded in the future to be able to sell them for what they should be worth... THEY LIED SO THEY CAN MAKE MORE MONEY... So, since they lie and now have shady business practices, what makes you think they would think twice about not bumping a card in the review process if it will both save them money now, and make them more money in the future???

    WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!
  • jradke4jradke4 Posts: 3,573 ✭✭✭
    my biggest gripe is that they are not consistent enough in their grading now to warrant a 0.5 scale. i have had and heard of people cracking and resubing with the result being a wide range of grades. some times up or down a grade. but also upgrades of more than 2. if that can happen how can they say that they can really distinguish between an 8, 8.5, and 9??? let alone do it consistently. because their isnt much consistenancy between graders now, let alone maybe even the same grader on a day to day basis.
    Packers Fan for Life
    Collecting:
    Brett Favre Master Set
    Favre Ticket Stubs
    Favre TD Reciever Autos
    Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
    Football HOF Rc's
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    Grading is subjective.

    Until it becomes computerized and/or they take out the "eye appeal" clause and grade STRICLY on the technical merits of a card, you are going to get grade swings.

    In the cases where cards went up or down more than 2 grades, 99.99999% of the time it was because one grader saw a wrinkle or a stain or something of that nature that automatically bumps the card to a much lower grade and the next grader did not catch it.

    I've never seen a card with PSA 5 corners or PSA 5 worthy centering in a PSA 8 or 9 holder.

    Knowing what we know, (Grading within one or 2 grades is very subjective) , why on earth would you not use this to your advantage? For Example, learn what the difference is between the majority of PSA 9's and the majority of PSA 8's. Now find 8's that exhibit qualities or look better than the many of the PSA 9's. Resub the card. You spend money on resubs, you save money by buying a PSA 9 card for PSA 8 price.

    Jason

    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    I think this is what Jon B has been trying to say all along, and Jon B please correct me if I am wrong.

    People will be looking at there cards choosing cards they feel are either under graded or hi end for the grade. They now have carefully looked at them and culled from the pile the best. They can now either resubmit them under the new plan and get a .5 bump and possibly even a full bump. The full bump is unlikely this way but possible. However if they crack cards they feel should get a full bump it is in there best interest as that way they have a better chance in getting the full bump.

    They understand the risks involved yet fel the pct goes in there favor when cracked.


    Is that basically it Jon B?


    Steve
    Good for you.
  • JonBJonB Posts: 495
    Thats pretty much it
  • rube26105rube26105 Posts: 10,225 ✭✭
    my 50 bowman # 7 fb is staying exactlylike it it, i figure if i want a 8.5, ill buy one
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