Crossgrades

bosox

What is the biggest jump you have ever had on a darkside crossgrade into a PCGS holder? Two come to mind for me.

1. A Newfoundland 1944 cent in an ICCS holder at AU-55 went MS-63 Brown.

2. A Nova Scotia 1861 cent small bud in an ICCS MS-60 holder went MS-63 Brown.

I knew both were undergraded, but never expected those results. How about you?

Of course, I choose not to discuss those that DNC.

TwoKopeiki

My first ever batch of cross-overs just got to PCGS, so can't talk from personal experience, but wow - an AU55 crossing into an MS grade! That must've been a surprise... The only similar situation I had receiving an MS62 grade on a Real sold by CNG as EF (raw).

coinpictures

<< <i>What is the biggest jump you have ever had on a darkside crossgrade into a PCGS holder? Two come to mind for me.

1. A Newfoundland 1944 cent in an ICCS holder at AU-55 went MS-63 Brown.

2. A Nova Scotia 1861 cent small bud in an ICCS MS-60 holder went MS-63 Brown.

I knew both were undergraded, but never expected those results. How about you?

Of course, I choose not to discuss those that DNC. >>



They weren't necessarily undergraded; they're just in a different holder now. ICCS appears to be considerably more conservative than any U.S. grading service (or the U.S. grading services are far too liberal; take your pick).

bosox

ICCS used to be more conservative on Canadian than PCGS, but not anymore IMO. The last two years or so, PCGS has been tougher on greyside coins than any other service. My list of ICCS stuff that DNC at PCGS is long and distinguished.

Doogy

<< <i>ICCS used to be more conservative on Canadian than PCGS, but not anymore IMO. The last two years or so, PCGS has been tougher on greyside coins than any other service. My list of ICCS stuff that DNC at PCGS is long and distinguished. >>



Did you 'crack 'em out' (or in ICCS case, cut them out with scissors and submit raw, or leave the in the flip? I'm guess the latter for your DNC stuff. I'd hazard a guess that bias is involved if that were the case. It is probably a little tough to swallow for a large TPG to admit that there is bascially a one man show that is seen as a superb technical grader in a given market. I submitted 9 ICCS coins to PCGS a few months back through a local dealer friend. I removed them from their flips and submitted raw, and all 9 made at least the ICCS grade, while 6 of the 9 upgraded at least a point. Mind you, this is a small sample, but i didn't screen these from hundreds of ICCS coins or anything; at the time I only had 9 ICCS graded Canadian coins and sent them all. There has always been a lot of talk on the US forum about cracking out and submitting raw versus a 'crossover'. MANY feel that there is an inherent bias, and prefer to crack out to get an accurate assessment and not to waste money playing the re-submission game.

MyWorldCoinTypeSet

<< <i>ICCS used to be more conservative on Canadian than PCGS, but not anymore IMO. The last two years or so, PCGS has been tougher on greyside coins than any other service. My list of ICCS stuff that DNC at PCGS is long and distinguished. >>



I'm not sure if generalizations about ICCS and PCGS grading are useful. Both use different grading criteria. There are many examples where one coin is higher at one TPG, and for other coins it's exactly the opposite.

As for bosox's coins ...
1. I'm not surprised an AU55 could become an MS63. I've heard of coins that were AU55's at PCGS and ICCS, and were resubmitted and came back with a low MS grade. We're talking about a minor surface disturbance, typically a lusture break. One day it's interpreted as wear, another day it's interpreted as cabinet friction.

2. ICCS puts a cap on brown copper, PCGS typically only assigns MS60 to ugly coins (negative eye appeal).

bosox

All good points.

Yes, I believe there is a bias both ways, but I rarely crack them out on a crossgrade. Most of what I submit is in the 64-66 range and I haven't developed the cajones to crack out a $2K coin and hope PCGS does not BB it.

ICCS and PCGS do have different grading criteria, particularly on copper, and it does factor into some coins. ICCS grades on luster, surfaces and strike, but not eye appeal. PCGS grades on all four criteria. ICCS will label copper as red at about 50%, while PCGS requires 90%+. ICCS will go up to 63, and rarely 64, on brown copper. I have seen 66 brown coins in a PCGS holder. Neither service is right or wrong, just different. Having said all that, and taking it all into consideration, PCGS has been much tougher the past two year.

Rob

laurentyvan

Lately we've seen many collectors pleasantly surprised at certain grade results when cross-grading.

Rarely do I see people complaining about a reputable initial grade being down-graded, so I have to assume pretty consistent upgrades.

Please think about the words "reputable initial grade". I wouldn't like to hear complaints about spurious TPG's assessments being down-graded (we all know about 3rd or 4th tier grading companies who have never seen a bad coin)

So Bosox, why the big difference do you think? Did what went DNC also originate with ICCS and did you have disagreements with the DNC items?

I have always understood ICCS to be conservative (which is reassuring) but rarely wrong, or at least that wrong...

Are you in agreement with PCGS's new grades or is the fact that they surprised you enough cause for you to re-evaluate standards as you understand them?

Are we into "Gee, the car I want to sell is worth $3000 in this first car guide, but $4000 in this second car guide, guess I'll buy the second guide?

Initially I stood with those who didn't like plastic but eventually yielded to the times and common market practice. Now I see the same grading differences between TPG's regarding world coins that I used to see virtually only in domestic coins

I guess I worry about the business motives behind large differences in grade between reputable companies. Shouldn't there be a stricter standards or is this the same tired old argument?

It would be interesting to hear other forum members observations regarding their DC or DNC coins. I don't mean any question to be pointed or disagreeable, just fascinated by the process.

Having a coin graded can be a great deal like most sporting events: a lot has to do with the umpires we get for the game and the quality of the players...

Edited to add: I wrote this response earlier this morning but got distracted and posted it later on- I see many of my questions were answered.

MyWorldCoinTypeSet

Having a coin graded can be a great deal like most sporting events: a lot has to do with the umpires we get for the game and the quality of the players...

An excellent assessment! Mind if I add this quote to my signature line?

bosox

Laurentyvan,

I have not sold coins at all. Once in a while I'll trade to get what I want, but that's about it so far.

My goal is to have as much of my Canadian collection crossgraded PCGS/ICCS as possible. That puts them in a hard holder, which I prefer, with an ICCS ticket to go with it. For an ICCS coin it means crossing it with PCGS and the extra step of crossing it back with ICCS. I established this goal so that, when I do decide to eventually bail out, I can hopefully maximize the return and minimize the hassle. I also want the collection to be as liquid as possible in case something happens to me and my wife has to deal with it. In any case that is why I have so much experience with ICCS/PCGS crossgrades.

Regarding the two coins I mentioned, I think each upgrade occurred for a different reason. The Newfoundland 1944 cent in the AU holder looked like a "63 with a rub", except the rub was very small. I expected it PCGS to call it a 62. I was surprised when it came back as a 63, because that is tied for top pop in brown (there are a couple of 64RB's and no reds).

The NS cent was different. It was in an early ICCS holder (the embossed kind), which meant it was graded in the 1990's when ICCS was very conservative. I probably could have cut it out and sent it to ICCS again and got a 62, or maybe even a 63 brown. I expected it to go 63 brown at PCGS and it did.

As for the DNC coins. I rarely lose one of these on the red color standard because I avoid buying ICCS "red" coins in the no man's land of 50-90% red. My coins failing to cross from ICCS to PCGS I think mostly did so for one of following reasons:

1. Carbon spots. ICCS will allow one or two small spots on red copper, but PCGS is death on them.
2. The bias. PCGS seems very reluctant to cross an ICCS coin that will match or exceed their current top pop for a date.

My coins failing to cross from PCGS to ICCS I think mostly did so for the following reasons:

1. Eye appeal. I don't send them ugly coins, but PCGS will sometimes nudge a coin with good eye appeal up and ICCS won't buy it.
2. RB copper in general. For coins with a equal mix of original red and toned brown, ICCS will usually only go up to 64. For coins with a mix of orange and brown, 63 is about the max.
3. The bias.

I will say that the bias isn't huge in either direction, but I am convinced it decides the close calls.

For the most part I understand all of these things and deal with it, but sometimes it becomes frustrating. But then if were easy, what fun would it be?

Rob