Vintage Poppage...Got Hammered Big Time
gemint
Posts: 6,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
I'm getting sick of PSA's inconsistancies. I've graded several thousand vintage cards with them, so I have a pretty good feel for grading standards. Any more, it's all in which grader you get. I did expect some 7's on these but not all 7s and 6s! The Cerv was borderline for an 8 but no way is it a 6! The Yaz came from a set and has a factory crimp on one edge cut but I've seen that cut on several untampered cards. Other submissions I've had in the past have left me scratching my head on how I got so many 9s & 10s.
It's even more frustrating when I buy so many crap 8's on eBay. I wonder how those cards ever get into 8 holders. It may be a product of people selling off their marginal 8s but it's really frustrating. Guarantee if I crack those 8s out of their holders, they'd come back 7s or even worse.
I'm starting to feel like more and more other collectors and trending toward going back to collecting raw. I'm surely a more consistant grader than they are.
Here's the blood bath. I paid $225 for the Cerv.
Rest assured I will be resubmitting these seeded in with another submission in the future. More $ for PSA, but probably not for long.
PSA Order Status for Submission # 4660093
LINE # CERT # CARD CARD CO. CARD # CARD NAME VARIETY GRADE
1 11569205 1973 TOPPS 245 CARL YASTRZEMSKI N/A Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
2 11569206 1961 TOPPS 19 CLETIS BOYER N/A 7
3 11569207 1961 TOPPS 143 RUSS SNYDER N/A 7
4 11569208 1961 TOPPS 146 MARTY KEOUGH N/A 7
5 11569209 1961 TOPPS 234 TED LEPCIO N/A 7
6 11569210 1961 TOPPS 255 VIC POWER N/A 7
7 11569211 1961 TOPPS 280 FRANK HOWARD N/A 7
8 11569212 1961 TOPPS 296 WES COVINGTON N/A 7
9 11569213 1961 TOPPS 308 WORLD SERIES GAME 3 RICHARDSON IS HERO 7
10 11569214 1961 TOPPS 424 TURK LOWN N/A 7
11 11569215 1961 TOPPS 498 RAY HERBERT N/A 6
12 11569216 1961 TOPPS 563 BOB CERV N/A 6
Date Received: 12/28/2007
Date of Grades Posted: 01/09/2008
Date Shipped: No Date Specified
It's even more frustrating when I buy so many crap 8's on eBay. I wonder how those cards ever get into 8 holders. It may be a product of people selling off their marginal 8s but it's really frustrating. Guarantee if I crack those 8s out of their holders, they'd come back 7s or even worse.
I'm starting to feel like more and more other collectors and trending toward going back to collecting raw. I'm surely a more consistant grader than they are.
Here's the blood bath. I paid $225 for the Cerv.
Rest assured I will be resubmitting these seeded in with another submission in the future. More $ for PSA, but probably not for long.
PSA Order Status for Submission # 4660093
LINE # CERT # CARD CARD CO. CARD # CARD NAME VARIETY GRADE
1 11569205 1973 TOPPS 245 CARL YASTRZEMSKI N/A Not Holdered, Evidence of Trimming
2 11569206 1961 TOPPS 19 CLETIS BOYER N/A 7
3 11569207 1961 TOPPS 143 RUSS SNYDER N/A 7
4 11569208 1961 TOPPS 146 MARTY KEOUGH N/A 7
5 11569209 1961 TOPPS 234 TED LEPCIO N/A 7
6 11569210 1961 TOPPS 255 VIC POWER N/A 7
7 11569211 1961 TOPPS 280 FRANK HOWARD N/A 7
8 11569212 1961 TOPPS 296 WES COVINGTON N/A 7
9 11569213 1961 TOPPS 308 WORLD SERIES GAME 3 RICHARDSON IS HERO 7
10 11569214 1961 TOPPS 424 TURK LOWN N/A 7
11 11569215 1961 TOPPS 498 RAY HERBERT N/A 6
12 11569216 1961 TOPPS 563 BOB CERV N/A 6
Date Received: 12/28/2007
Date of Grades Posted: 01/09/2008
Date Shipped: No Date Specified
0
Comments
Only nice thing I could come up with..sorry.
Sucks on the Cerv, that is crazy. I've had more than one sub that I took a bath on, only to crack and resub some of those same cards and have them come back a grade, or TWO higher or a grade or two lower. I always find that one more depressing. I have a card I think is an 8 or 9 and it gets graded a 7 the first time around, resub it, it grades a 6...try again, it's an 8 which is where it should have been the first time around. Have other cards returned for recolor, trim or min size only to have them find themselves in high grade holders the next time around. I always love getting evid of trim on stuff I pulled from wax from bbce the week before too. I had some 95 sp football die cuts like that a couple subs back. Pulled them on Monday, sent em in that Friday for a guy that builds that set, 3 were returned Evid of Trim. I wasn't hardly going to get the grading fees back anyway, now they went to him raw. Let him try.
I feel your pain, it is frustrating.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
I think they may be trying to move to fast, grade too many cards in a short period of time. I'm not sure the answer, however I do know we all would like more consistancy on the grading. Re-submitting a 6 and getting an 8 is not OK, that should never happen.
Dave
Collecting all cards - Gus Zernial
Post Cereal both raw and PSA Graded (1961-1963)
Could you work for $8.00 an hour?
<< <i>I'm surely a more consistant grader than they are.Text
Could you work for $8.00 an hour? >>
No. If they're paying $8 an hour, that would be embarassing. Fixed overhead for grading a card should be no more than $2.50, even with all the advertising and show appearances. That leaves at least $2.50 to cover variable overhead and profit. If a grader grades 4 cards in an hour, they'd cover their salary if it's $8 per hour.
By the way, this was my CC submission, hence the turnaround time. I don't believe they grade these any tougher. At least not historically. I got 3 8s (1969 Mantle, Ryan and Jackson) and one 9 (1969 Clemente) on my first CC submission many years ago and had a '72 Ryan bump from an 8 to a 9 on a CC submission a few years ago.
<< <i>I keep hearing these horror stories. Makes me regret sending in 125 cards under the last $5.00 special. I have experienced the 2 grade bump. I sent in a 1960 Topps hockey Johnny Bucyk expecting an 8. It came back a 6
I'd rather just pay them $10 and have them grade it right the first time rather than have to resubmit it again.
Consistency and Customer Support....PSA does neither very well. They are still the leader and whoever at PSA came up with the Set Registry should be a multi-millionaire because it makes them more money than any other segment of their business and probably is the single reason they leaped to the top of the grading food chain.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
but also had a maris come back a 9.. and a second come back 5???????
they all look identical... I popped the maris... and am sending it back...
I looked it over and it was just as nice as the 9.. no way I missed something
I just saw a psa 9 mantle sell and it looked no better then mine.. not sure what keeps it from 9?
if it meets 8 standards??? I hand cut it with a razor.. so the 4 corners were literally razor sharp...
I just don't know why it is so hard to get a 9-10 on my mantles.. is it because it is mantle??
do you think they grade big time value cards harder?? instead of just grading the card?
1) They are always all over the map on grading '61 Topps. No consistency whatsoever. They are just as likely to give a nice NM-MT '61 card a 6 as an 8.
2) I'm not sending anything in for awhile. Too many horror stories to make it worth it.
3) With some of the 60's market being soft, perhaps a grading crackdown is occurring to prop up the market a bit. Would not be surprised.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>
3) With some of the 60's market being soft, perhaps a grading crackdown is occurring to prop up the market a bit. Would not be surprised.
Ron >>
You make a good point Ron. I also think it may be a ploy to encourage more resubmissions. That also keeps cards flowing into the grading rooms. It's a risk however as it can turn their better customers away from grading all together.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
It's because you are not one of the big 3 dealers !! You finally get some nice cards and BOOM the bomb goes off !!
Really getting sick of having to resubmit. To much cost right now. I'll be sending in my free vouchers. After that i'm done.
I had 6's that are 8's , 7's that are 9's
6.00 dollar bulk 294 cards and not 1 PSA 10 !! ????????? What tha !!!!!!!!Cards were mainly from 1967 and 1970 hockey.
I look at DSL and 4 sharp corners and my PSA 7's are better then there 9's !! So you could only imagine what my 9's look like.
I use a 10 X loop and you have to look hard to see touches on the corners on my 7's. None and i mean none of my 7's corners you can visibly see wear on the corners !! I might be 40 years old but i had laser done 2 years ago and i still have 20/20 vision.
After the last sub i can honestly say NO MORE !! You used to hear the odd grip on these boards but it's getting to be way to often for my taste. Don't care if they run a 1.00 special. I'll keep my money until something gets done about this.
Anyways if i were you i would e-mail PSA and tell them to review them. That's what i did. I got totally ignored without any response.
Maybe if more and more people start e-mailing them , then maybe they will get off there but and start looking into who the grader was !!! If it is only a couple of graders doing this crap then PSA might either re-train them or can there but.
For me i'll get my freebies and say Good-Bye PSA for now !!
Steve
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>Post some pics when you get the cards back. >>
Will do.
For the record, I don't buy into the belief that the big submitters get better grades. In fact, I've had some awesome invoices in the past and at my peak I was submitting only about 2k cards per year. My problem is just the consistancy. There are too many bumps in recent years. Before that, you'd have to submit a card 4 or 5 times and then maybe it would finally bump. Now if you submit it 4 or 5 times, you'll likely get a different grade each time.
Same thing for well centered 7's, they can go from 7 to 9.
The difference is miniscule and since grading is not a science we see grades all over the board.
I have 7's that appear nicer then 8's and vice versa.
True EX/MNT cards ones that have minute wear on 3 corners that a 10x loupe is needed to see, that are centered can grade from 6 thru 8 at any given time.
Back in the day a true EX/MNT card was what I tried to buy.
They appeared mint upon first glance and only after a real study of the card would the apparent wear be seen.
I am not talking about mid grade stuff that is graded as a net.
Steve
<< <i>Three thoughts:
3) With some of the 60's market being soft, perhaps a grading crackdown is occurring to prop up the market a bit. Would not be surprised.
Ron >>
I don't think they're trying to prop up the market a bit, what you're seeing is simply a lack of skill from the grading department.
There is no chipping,dings,dog ears etc.. etc... There maybe some black from the print from the factory because the back of these cards are black.
The NEW grading for 7's !!! Good Luck at a 10 !!
Look at Pics 10a 11a 12a below !!
<< <i>Unless a card has a flaw that is readily seen cards can be graded from 6 to 8 at any given time.
Same thing for well centered 7's, they can go from 7 to 9.
The difference is miniscule and since grading is not a science we see grades all over the board.
I have 7's that appear nicer then 8's and vice versa.
True EX/MNT cards ones that have minute wear on 3 corners that a 10x loupe is needed to see, that are centered can grade from 6 thru 8 at any given time.
Back in the day a true EX/MNT card was what I tried to buy.
They appeared mint upon first glance and only after a real study of the card would the apparent wear be seen.
I am not talking about mid grade stuff that is graded as a net.
Steve >>
I agree that there are borderline cards that are "tweeners" and can go either way. However, we're seeing massive inconsistancies and even bumps of multiple grades. A card should never go from a 6 to an 8 or visa versa. But it happens all too often. If one is skilled enough at grading, it is very easy to distinguish a 9 from a 7. Perhaps in the modern refractor issues it's not so easy to distinguish but I'm talking strictly vintage which is what I collect.