FAKE rattler insert in a Heritage auction?

nicetoning42107

I swear this looks like a fake insert in a rattler holder to me. I'm using Scott Travers's "How To Make Money In Coins Right Now" Second Edition for reference and have included the applicable part of that page in the second picture in this post. I always compare the serifs on the "G" in "GRADING" on a real insert, the serif is higher than the crossbar of the "R" next to it. On the fake, the serif on the "G" is lower than the crossbar of the "R" next to it. Scott Travers also mentions serifs are slanted on the real one, and vertical on the fake. The following Heritage link should take you to the an auction of their's that featured a rattler with a fake insert, I believe. I am not accusing them of deception; I could be in the wrong here. I'd love to hear the input of the board on this one. Coin looks good for the grade, though.

Heritage Link

DeusExMachina

Interesting.

The cert verification shows this:

COIN INFORMATION
Cert Verification #: 7008396
PCGS Coin #: 7360
Date, mintmark: 1923
Denomination: $1
Variety:
Pedigree:
Country: The United States of America
Grade: MS65

nicetoning42107

Good point. I forgot about using cert verification on the PCGS site. Interesting how it says for cert verification, the year is 1923 yet the coin in the holder is a 1922 and says so on the fake insert tag.

BECOKA

Here is a good label:


Here is a bad label:


Notice how the serif on the lines of the "F" are different. On the good label they are at 45 degrees, on the bad label they are vertical. Pretty much the same on other letters as well. Look at the "C" in coin. the good label has them at 45 degrees and the bad is vertical.

The easiest difference looks to be the "N" in coin.

Here is the one from the Heritage auction in the link above.



Now look at the "N" and the Heritage coin looks to be genuine. The other letters are very difficult to tell from a photo.

Luckily either way the coin value is not going to burn anyone.

BECOKA

<< <i>Good point. I forgot about using cert verification on the PCGS site. Interesting how it says for cert verification, the year is 1923 yet the coin in the holder is a 1922 and says so on the fake insert tag. >>



This is not always a good way to check. PCGS does make mistakes and I have seen my fair share to know that all it takes is an accidental press of the keyboard. So if the person entering the data that day 20 years ago was having a bad day and did not double check the data we get an error in the system.

nicetoning42107

BECOKA, I notice the differences in the "N" in "COIN". The real insert has the "N" not as wide as the fake insert, but in this Heritage Auction the cert tag appears to have the wide "N" characteristic of the bad insert.

I understand mistakes could be made with the cert verification. 1 simple number.

But when you put all of this together, it really looks as if the coin in that Heritage auction had a bad insert.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck. . .

BECOKA

Yeah it is really tough to tell without seeing it in hand. The N could go either way. It looks a bit wide but then it has the serif that seems to be missing on the fake.

Either way it was not a big dollar coin and buyer probably got what they paid for. Not sure why someone would go through the trouble to counterfeit this slab just to put a $200 coin in it.

mozin

The PCGS label most definitely looks to be bogus. I wonder why anyone would phony up the cert number.

nicetoning42107

<< <i>Yeah it is really tough to tell without seeing it in hand. The N could go either way. It looks a bit wide but then it has the serif that seems to be missing on the fake.

Either way it was not a big dollar coin and buyer probably got what they paid for. Not sure why someone would go through the trouble to counterfeit this slab just to put a $200 coin in it. >>



To be fair, there was a market boom in the late 80's and an MS65 Peace Dollar commanded much more than $200 back then, I believe (I wasn't in the market back then, I've only read about the boom). These fake holders began appearing not too long after the real rattlers came out. I don't know if they were all done at one time or if it was one collective group.

This is a wake-up call to all collectors and dealers. Just because these fakes first surfaced about 20 years ago doesn't mean they can't be around today. Humans tend to forget over time, plus many new faces have entered the market since then. I come from the latter group and can tell you I have never heard ANYONE else mention the fake PCGS rattler slabs besides the book I mentioned in the original post.

I am aware of the news of the fake coins in fake NGC slabs coming from China recently, but let's not forget about these fake rattlers.

Unknown

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Free

I agree with you on your assertion, Realone. Looking at the alignment it definitely looks like Coin and Grading are both slightly indented, a tell tale sign of the bogus inserts (at least from what I've read).

Wingsrule

I look at it the other way - the "S" on the fake label appears to be farther outdented than the P, C and G. Easier to tell without a good one in hand.

Boom

Unbelievable. Some of the things people do are just utterly incredible.

astrorat

It is a counterfeit PCGS insert. Dang! I wish I would have known so I could to bid on it...I need one for my collection.

Lane

HeritageGreg

I am looking to see which auction this is in and I will have the coin on my desk this morning.

Greg

Bmarkers

<< <i>I am looking to see which auction this is in and I will have the coin on my desk this morning.

Greg >>



Damn!

Bmarkers

BTW. The easy way to tell the difference between the real & fake label is the position of the letter "I" in "service".

If its under the "D" Its fake.
If its in-between the "D" and "I" its real.

NHSBaseball

<< <i>I am looking to see which auction this is in and I will have the coin on my desk this morning.

Greg >>



Nice job and quick response- good work, Greg.

moonshine

quite astute to have spotted this.

sinin1

thw auxction closed 2 weeks ago

possibly it has already been shipped

BECOKA

<< <i>I thought another way to tell was that the first letters of each line had to be in a straight line on the genuine and move in and out on the fake as does the Heritage lot, to me it definitely looks fake, and then you add the wrong hear for the cert, and I think you got too many coincidences to be at all comfortable with this lot. Heritage should be notified of the issue just to maintain the integrity of the auction don't you think? >>



Looks like a winner. Definitely a fake when you look at this comparing the two labels.

SeattleSlammer

I don't understand why it's so difficult to make an EXACT copy of a label. Seems that should be one of the easiest things to pull off.

SeattleSlammer

Ohhh, that was a bad pun, too. (above)

BECOKA

I was just approached by a former forum member with the following question which as some significant merit.

"From the images, it certainly looks much nicer than many MS65's I've seen. So, my question to you detectives is: Why would someone take a PQ looking coin and insert it into a holder or substitute it for an inferior one?"

Really if you look at the coin it looks really nice for the grade.

Any thoughts on this?

ArgentumRex

Good question! I was wondering the same thing...

astrorat

<< <i>I was just approached by a former forum member with the following question which as some significant merit.

"From the images, it certainly looks much nicer than many MS65's I've seen. So, my question to you detectives is: Why would someone take a PQ looking coin and insert it into a holder or substitute it for an inferior one?"

Really if you look at the coin it looks really nice for the grade.

Any thoughts on this? >>



I also thought the coin looked nice from the images. There is (was) really no financial incentive to put an "accurately graded" coin in a counterfeit holder as the few dollars it would save do not warrant the risk.

My guess is the coin likely has altered surfaces and would be body-bagged if sent to PCGS. So, in a counterfeit holder it could be sold to an unsuspecting and uninformed collector or investor for "real" money. Not there's the financial incentive.

Perhaps Mr. Rohan will post his impressions of the coin if he is able to view it.

Lane

Lane

BECOKA

It's a tough call, the label is borderline in my opinion. I talked to a pretty reputable dealer who is betting that it is just an input error and the the slab is legit.

Longacre

This is scary. Maybe we can start a service which can certify the slabs as genuine.

BECOKA

<< <i>This is scary. Maybe we can start a service which can certify the slabs as genuine. >>



OK that comment gets a sticker.

19Lyds

From Conder101's thread the slab definitely looks counterfeit. Look at how the left edges do not line up.

As far as counterfeit slabs goes, I think PCGS moved away from this slab configuration primarily because it was so easy to counterfeit and the coins could move around in them. But I do not know for certain.

PerryHall

Wouldn't it be funny as hell if this slab had a CAC sticker?

DeusExMachina

<< <i>I was just approached by a former forum member with the following question which as some significant merit.

"From the images, it certainly looks much nicer than many MS65's I've seen. So, my question to you detectives is: Why would someone take a PQ looking coin and insert it into a holder or substitute it for an inferior one?"

Really if you look at the coin it looks really nice for the grade.

Any thoughts on this? >>



Practice? A coin that nice probably does not warrant a label examination.

DeusExMachina

<< <i>This is scary. Maybe we can start a service which can certify the slabs as genuine. >>





Ever the cynic.

astrorat

<< <i>This is scary. Maybe we can start a service which can certify the slabs as genuine. >>



Interesting as well over a year ago Cameron and I talked about this exact issue. Not so much for whether or not the slab was counterfeited to pass a bad coin, but whether the slab was counterfeited to be sold as a rare slab.

Think about it...could you determine if your NGC black was counterfeit? At close to $1000 for a generic coin in one of these holders, it is only a matter of time before these will be counterfeited.

Lane

robkool

Now it's a fake PCGS old slab holder ??? GEEEzzzzz...

ahooka454

THIS THREAD SHOULD STAY AT THE TOP!


We should (as the consumer of said counterfiet) should be looking at the coin grading companies for some sort of statment. Are they actively investigating (prosecuting) these scum baggs? As some one who spends alot of money on graded coins and the grading of said coins, I as a consumer of their services demand it! We all should. This could really screw things up for alot of us. I cant even be sure now of the slab being real? WTF! I'd like to know what All the grading companies plan to do (or are doing) about this.

Unknown

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Frankcoins

Note the "flawless" obverse yet the reverse has many serious marks. The coin has been extensively worked on and given a new finish on the obverse. A $8 coin at the time which was worth about $800 when it was put in the fake slab.

cmerlo1

What a great thread!

I appreciate the quick response by Greg as well- I look forward to hearing what he has to say about the slab when he has it in hand.

I think it's a nice coin, and from the pix, looks to be as nice or better than the slab grade implies. As for motive, I'm not sure how much it cost to get coins slabbed @ PCGS back in the rattler days, but if you made enough of them, the cost of counterfeiting the slabs would probably end up less than having the same number of coins certified legitimately.

HeritageGreg

Ron Guth at PCGS has been very helpful on this. The coin was already shipped to the buyer so we are contacting them and explaining the problem, and asking them to return the coin to us or to PCGS.

Thanks for the heads up.

Greg

sonoranmonsoon

<< <i>Ron Guth at PCGS has been very helpful on this. The coin was already shipped to the buyer so we are contacting them and explaining the problem, and asking them to return the coin to us or to PCGS.

Thanks for the heads up.

Greg >>



Wow! It is nice to see Heritage and PCGS take the issue of fake slabs very seriously and make it a top priority. My hat is off to both of you.

messydesk

<< <i>Ron Guth at PCGS has been very helpful on this. The coin was already shipped to the buyer so we are contacting them and explaining the problem, and asking them to return the coin to us or to PCGS.

Thanks for the heads up.

Greg >>


Now that's service!

nicetoning42107

<< <i>

<< <i>This is scary. Maybe we can start a service which can certify the slabs as genuine. >>



Interesting as well over a year ago Cameron and I talked about this exact issue. Not so much for whether or not the slab was counterfeited to pass a bad coin, but whether the slab was counterfeited to be sold as a rare slab.

Think about it...could you determine if your NGC black was counterfeit? At close to $1000 for a generic coin in one of these holders, it is only a matter of time before these will be counterfeited.

Lane >>



That's hilarious! If the slab was trying to passed off as a "genuine" fake rattler holder, wouldn't it make sense to make the coin look MS62/63? I agree the coin looks good for the grade from the pictures provided.

I think in this case, it was an honest error that the fake slab wasn't pointed out by Heritage.

I do appreciate all of the input thus far on this topic. I had no idea this would stir such interest. As always, I have learned something new on this message board (that being, counterfeit rattlers are popular among slab collectors). That's why I like this board. I truly learn so much. No where else can you get the more current events. Plus I've learned things about market perception, how to tell if a coin has been cleaned, which dealers to watch out for, and on and on.

I'll be sticking around here for a long, long time I think.

cucurbit

Coin is being auctioned again and ends in 30 minutes.

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=28023&Lot_No=23398

Frankcoins

<< <i>Coin is being auctioned again and ends in 30 minutes.

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=28023&Lot_No=23398 >>



So how did this coin get back in the marketplace?

MrEureka

Clearly the same coin. I guess the slab turned out to be legit.

Sold Feb 19:



Not sold Dec 18:

mgoodm3

Would be interesting to hear from Heritage about this recent info.

BECOKA

Heritage?

amiller

I would be more interested to hear from PCGS than Heritage. If they checked it out and gave it the green light, why were so many people here convinced it is fake? Is the guideline for looking at the fonts incorrect?

DJCoinz

WTH?

messydesk

The cert lookup doesn't match. Could be that Heritage and PCGS both think the coin's a 65 and let it be. I'd have a hard time believing PCGS would permit a fake slab on the market, but this coin might not be worth their while to pursue.