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1970 D Quarter Varieties (Reverses) includes Type B (H) and Type M (G)

There have been several recent threads on Type B quarters. Type B is the proof only style first introduced in 1937 and last used after a slight 1968 modification in 1972. There are also examples of its use on a minority of business strikes from 1956 - 1964 and 1969 D - 1972 D.
In those threads I have mentioned an additional proof only version introduced in 1968 and also used on a minority of business strikes in 1969 and 1970.

I have not been able to post pictures until now. Type2 has very kindly made some excellent pictures of my coins and will be posting them here shortly. I will then discuss pickup points for these varieties. The pictures will include the alternate proof type, the standard business strike of 1970, the Type B and a Class III (made from differing design hubs) doubled die.

Comments

  • Type2Type2 Posts: 12,819 ✭✭✭✭✭
    imageimageimageimageimageimageimageimage


    Hoard the keys.
  • The first 1970 D reverse pictured is the special proof design of 1968. Nomenclature gets awkward here. According to Breen and this forum, all pre bi-centennial clad reverses (with the exception of Type B) are Type C. But there are 6 versions of this from 1965 - 1973. In keeping with the commonly used A, B, C, I will call this one M for modified. (In my 1986 article it was a IIIm and Dr. James Wiles and Coneca will call it a RDV- 007). This M artwork was made from the regular business strike artwork of 1968 (a IIIb or RDV-006) and both the master hub (design, including field subtracted) and master die (design added) modified.

    The first item to note is the inside edge (IE - I will be using the same check points as we go along) of the eagle's wing. This is very sharp and like a vertical wall. My fingernail will catch on the wing boundary if I drag it across the field. I am able to pick out this variety with my eyes closed. This boundary is obvious and the sharpest you will ever find on a Washington Quarter reverse. In additional the vertical wing segments have outlines added in relief. Perhaps this is most obvious on the left (viewer's) wing tip.

    There are two leafs just to the left of the arrow points. Consider the leftmost one (LL). This has been extended upwards while the one to its right (RL) is nearly normal as compared to most other varieties. It does not show in the picture but the left leaf extension is obviously added on and appears doubled. I guess we have some 20th century recutting doubling here. The right leaf shows doubling to a much lesser degree.

    The gap (GAP) between the arrow points and the next leaf is most odd. It is like a hologram. As you rock the coin back and forth it appears to be a gap at times and closed at times.

    The barb of the top arrowpoint (TB) is missing.

    The barb of the bottom arrowpoint (BB) is present.

    This "M" version was used for about 75% of 1968 S Proof production and for no other proofs.
    It was used on 12 % of the 1969 D, 11 % of the 1970 D and 6 % of the 1970 (P) business strikes.
    It appears in most of the 1970 mint sets. Many of these were cut up for the Kennedy half of that year. Hence 1970 D "M" is now quite common in dealers' stocks.


    This is enough writing for one night. I will pick up on the next picture later.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 26,879 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ttt
    Tempus fugit.
  • TomBTomB Posts: 16,984 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank you for creating this thread, it is quite useful.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 26,879 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm sure we'd all be interested in percentages of these. I'd also be interested
    in the percentage in mint sets.

    I think I remember you saying the type "b" was less than 1%.
    Tempus fugit.
  • direwolf1972direwolf1972 Posts: 2,083 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for the info.

    Bookmarked for future use.
    I'll see your bunny with a pancake on his head and raise you a Siamese cat with a miniature pumpkin on his head.

    You wouldn't believe how long it took to get him to sit still for this.


  • The second pair of pictures is a 1970 D regular issue. Coneca and I count this as the fourth clad version. I called it IIIb and Coneca calls it RDV-006. However all these versions are so similiar that our checkpoints listed here will actually work for all of them plus the silver type A (excluding of course the proof artwork versions). It first appears on a few tenths of one per cent of the 1967 issue. It last appears on most of the 1972 issues. It was also used for about 1% of the 1968 S production as was another early clad version. This particular design is interesting in that it shows signs of hub doubling. This is most obvious on the inside edge of the top of Q in QUARTER. This doubling is also carried on to the type M previously discussed and the further slightly modified 1973-1974 issues.

    Inside edge of the wings - This is the weakest division of any of the four coins pictured here, although it is stronger than most of the 1965-1968 coins.

    Two leafs to the left of the arrow points - normal, that is neither one is sticking up higher.

    Gap between arrowpoints and right (ajacent) leaf is present.

    Barb of top and bottom arrowponts are present.

    I will post this before I accidently lose it.
  • Now we come to the third pair of pictures. Without even checking the pickup points, that picture screams type B to me. That reverse was first used on 1937 proof coins. I believe a silver type A hub was taken and made into a master hub for type B. The detail was enhanced by scraping away at a considerable part of the field. Yet the clad B version is slightly different. All clad quarters 1965-1992 have center lines in relief in the tail feathers which were not present on the silver versions types A and B. When the mint started using the old type B artwork on proofs in late 1968, the center lines were added to the master die. Hence I called it IIb and Coneca calls it RDV-008. This reverse was used on about one quarter of the 1968 S quarters. It was used on all proofs 1969 S - 1972 S. I have also found it on .8% 1969 D, .1% 1970 D, .03% 1971 D and .01% 1972 D. These searches and statistics were conducted in the Boston Federal Reserve District. I have been told that my 1970 D results for type B is much higher than other sections of the country. The 1971 D B and 1972 D B would appear to be from one die each. After searching through about 800,000 quarters, I had 2 1972 D B. I gave one of them away.

    There are some standard pickup points for type B which I will skip over and just use the ones we have been using. I trust you have noticed a certain symmetry about them.

    Inside edge of wings - A stronger boundary than the regular circulation strikes. But this slopes up more gradually than the type M although it eventually builds up higher. The field has been lowered. But being as the artwork is from the old silver issues, it is already in higher relief than the clad. I can detect these with my eyes closed just by touching the eagle's breast and detecting that it is higher. I can not tell type A and B apart this way.

    The left leaf does not stick up excessively.

    The right leaf (ajacent to the arrowpoints) sticks up above the arrowpoints.

    There is no gap between that leaf and the arrowpoints.

    The barb on the top arrowpoint is apperently missing. Look carefully with a glass and I think you will see it. That deep carved out field next to it overwhelms it. In contrast I think type M really erased that barb.

    The bottom barb is missing.

    I notice that on this coin there is very little rim in places and the lettering is actualy the edge. I am not going to try to explain that. I have seen other 1970 D B's the same way and some that were normal.

    If you were playing close attention you will have noticed we have now mentioned 4 different 1968 S proof reverses.
    These same four were used for 1969 D production. Three of them were used for 1970 D and are the first three pairs pictured here and discussed.
  • The last picture is a class III dual hub doubled die. I call it a IIIb/m and Coneca uses RDV-006/7.
    I present it wih mixed emotions. I had three nice die varieties going and now this complicates it.
    In 1970, it almost seems the mint forgot they had the IIIm and IIIB versions and used them indiscrimately. They use both hubs to make one die. There must have been some problem in alignment because many of then show rotational doubling to different degrees and direction. 4.4% of the 1970 D production in my search of 1,000 1970 D quarters were doubled dies. This would require about 100 working dies. In the meantime 1970 (P) IIIb/m were less than .1% of a small mintage and appear to be one die only.

    Inside edge of wings - intermediate appearance between the M and ordinary C versions. The bad thing is this can appear in several different degrees. The contrast between wing and field is intermediate but the left vertical wing inside feather relief outline is present, although its position versus the feather can vary.

    The two leafs are similiar to the type M in that they show evidence of doubling.

    The gap is similiar to M.

    The top barb will be fairly strong if the IIIb hubbing was clockwise.

    I assume most of these doubled dies are probably next to worthless but two of them are in the Cherrypickers' Guide. These are FS-25-1970D-801 (Coneca 1-R-III+V) and FS-25-1970D-802 (Coneca 2-R-III+I). I didn't recognize from that book but saw pictures of the full coins on TeleTrade.

    They have been reported as being in mint sets. About 5 % of mint sets are IIIb and most of them are IIIm.

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 26,879 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ttt
    Tempus fugit.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 26,879 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is one of the few threads I've printed out.

    Thread titles can be edited but it might be difficult to get any key word that will make this easy to find.
    Tempus fugit.
  • sparky64sparky64 Posts: 6,790 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Outstanding job.
    I appreciate it. image

    "If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"

    My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress

  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,396 ✭✭✭✭
    Gawd I really hate when I encounter threads like this as it gives me yet one more thing to look for!!

    That Type B reverse on the 70D is most interesting and will get added to my watch list!

    And yes, thank you!
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • <<That Type B reverse on the 70D is most interesting and will get added to my watch list!>>

    Lee, how about the B's for 1969D, 1971 D and 1972 D?
  • Cladking has pointed out that all this was too complicated to actually absorb and to go pick out the varieties. Walter Breen told me much the same thing decades ago. They both recommend a single pickup point for each variety. I tried, but could not resist putting two in for each one. You can pick the one you like. The 3 varieties discussed in this thread (excluding the doubled die) also appear on the 1968 S and 1969 D quarters (along with a 4th design variety).

    I prepared a tread of simplified pick up points which cladking has used with great sucess.
    The title is "1968 S (1969 D) quarter Type B and 3 Other Reverse Varieties".
    It is at:

    http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=659907
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 26,879 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Cladking has pointed out that all this was too complicated to actually absorb and to go pick out the varieties. Walter Breen told me much the same thing decades ago. They both recommend a single pickup point for each variety. I tried, but could not resist putting two in for each one. You can pick the one you like. The 3 varieties discussed in this thread (excluding the doubled die) also appear on the 1968 S and 1969 D quarters (along with a 4th design variety).

    I prepared a tread of simplified pick up points which cladking has used with great sucess.
    The title is "1968 S (1969 D) quarter Type B and 3 Other Reverse Varieties".
    It is at:

    http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=659907 >>







    Link for above

    These are really pretty simple once you find one and have a couple to compare them to.
    Tempus fugit.
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,396 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i><<That Type B reverse on the 70D is most interesting and will get added to my watch list!>>

    Lee, how about the B's for 1969D, 1971 D and 1972 D? >>



    Always Herb!

    I need to change my name to Lee B. instead of Lee C.

    No wait, I look for C reverses too. image

    Maybe George would work?
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • Type2Type2 Posts: 12,819 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image


    Hoard the keys.
  • do any of the TPGs designate any of the different reverses from 1968-1970?

    I do not think I have ever seen a slab say type M (so wouldn't all type M's be undesignated?)
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,994 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PAC - Excellent work!

    In establishing prices for some of these coins in the Price Guide... the MS65 grade 1970-D DDR that sold on Teletrade last night at $149.50 with the juice...

    Do you believe the Cherrypickers' listed price of $200 in that grade is too high based upon the estimated number of coins that exist out there? Is $150 too high for that matter? Likewise, for MS66 - is $300+ too high for the guide? Thoughts?

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • <<In establishing prices for some of these coins in the Price Guide... the MS65 grade 1970-D DDR that sold on Teletrade last night at $149.50 with the juice...

    Do you believe the Cherrypickers' listed price of $200 in that grade is too high based upon the estimated number of coins that exist out there? Is $150 too high for that matter? Likewise, for MS66 - is $300+ too high for the guide? Thoughts?>>

    I don't claim to be an expert at all on pricing. Maybe some other folk can chime in. I figure there are about 100 unspectacular 1970 D class III doubled dies out there. So far only 2 (both of which have an additional doubling class) are recognized in the CPG.

  • SUMORADASUMORADA Posts: 4,845


    If I'm getting this correct.......the coin below (1969 D) is a Type "M"...I just found it in a mint set.

    image
  • dlmtortsdlmtorts Posts: 672 ✭✭✭
    I believe you are correct. However, proofartworkoncircs and cladking are the best experts on this, so I'll wait for their confirmation.
  • <<If I'm getting this correct.......the coin below (1969 D) is a Type "M"...I just found it in a mint set.>>

    Correct and Congratulations. This is the first 1969 D type M found in a mint set that I am aware of. But I haven't been looking there and there could be many for all I know about those mint sets.


  • SUMORADASUMORADA Posts: 4,845
    Correct and Congratulations. This is the first 1969 D type M found in a mint set that I am aware of. But I haven't been looking there and there could be many for all I know about those mint sets.

    Thank you, I found (4) altogether........image

    Edited to add......I also found (2) 1970 D Type M......

    imageimage
  • <<Monday February 22, 2010 10:01 AM



    do any of the TPGs designate any of the different reverses from 1968-1970?

    I do not think I have ever seen a slab say type M (so wouldn't all type M's be undesignated?) >>

    I just noticed your question on the end of page 1.

    So far the TPG's have done little with the clad quarter reverse varieties.
    ANACS and ICG have slabed type B's with their Breen numbers which mean type B, but won't otherwise say so.
    Possibly you cold talk ANACS into slabbing a type M with some unique wording identifying it. After all, it is obviously a variety.

  • Thanks for all the info...I continue to learn here. It is GREAT!

    I just searched a bunch of 1969 & 1970 mint sets. The interesting thing I saw was that ALL of the 1970 D 25c were Type M. This goes along with what was said in the opening statement. All of the other quaters were the normal Type C with the exception of a single 1969 D Type M.

    So if you want to see a a Type M quarter all you need to do is check out your 1970 D from a mint set. VERY likely it will be a type M. I checked over 50 sets and ALL were.
    (PAST) OWNER #1 SBA$ REGISTRY COLLECTOIN
  • Very interesting. Another D mint type M in a 1969 mint set, but evidently not a common occurence.

    Now who will be the first to find a 1970 Philly type M in a mint set?

    There are a few non M D's in the 1970 mint sets. There are even class III doubled dies with type M being one of the dies used.

    There was a solid roll of uncirculated 1969 D type M's on ebay awhile back. The owner did not know the history of them other than they were his father's. About half were struck from very worn dies.
  • ttt

    It has been a half decade plus since this thread was last posted. I am hoping some of the newer folk might be interested in it.

    In the meantime what we used to call a clad type B is now a type H (or RDV-008)
    .
    What I called a type M is now a type G (or RDV-007).
  • Bob1951Bob1951 Posts: 268 ✭✭
    Thanks for reviving this thread. I am still lost, so, I will be saving all 1969-1972 quarters that I get until I can figure out which ones they are.





    Bob
  • stashstash Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭
    Here's a chart on Reverses, for the Washington Quarter ..

    [URL=http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/stash38/media/QUARTER_RDV_1-8_COOP_A_zps1nuirhfk.jpg.html]image[/URL]


    Here's a 70-D with the Reverse clad layer missing, I'll have to check and see what Reverse it has .

    [URL=http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/stash38/media/A026 - 20151028_094813 2_zps0mq4hjoi.jpg.html]image[/URL]
  • Stash,
    I like your chart, but please forgive me if I nitpick it a bit.

    The RDV number appears at the beginning of an entry while the type letter is at the end and sort of running into the next entry.
    Maybe those should be together and/or a little space between entries

    Type B reverse was also used on proof Philadelphia quarters from 1937-1942, 1950-1964.

    RDV-004 is AKA type D

    RDV-005 is AKA type E. The statements for types D and E are true for both, but not sufficient to distinguish between the two.

    RDV-006 is AKA Type F

    RDV-007 is AKA Type G AKA Type M

    RDV-008 is AKA Type H. This is very similar to type B


    I agree that Stash's 68 D is a RDV-004 but that is a type D.
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