Seeking Advice --- Not Genuine 1909-S IHC/Added Mintmark

SeaEagleCoins

OK...I would really like to hear some ideas on the best way to handle this...

First off...I have made no decision on how to handle this and any constructive advice is welcome...


A few months ago, I was approached at a show by a regular customer...he usually buys slabbed coins and most are high-end, big ticket (for me, anyway...I ain't Legend )...

Somewhere along the way he had, for some reason, bought a full IHC set in a Whitman album...running G-F...a few cleaned ones but overall, not too bad...

His mentor/advisor...also a customer of mine...had convinced him to sell it and use the money to buy something else...he wanted to know if I would buy it...

I checked it out and made certain that the 1877 was genuine...which it was...it now resides in my 7070...

I then assessed the grades, etc. and made an offer...we dickered...he wanted more than I was comfortable with as most of these coins would end up sitting in a notebook...possibly until I retire...

He pulled out the "I'm a faithful customer"...insinuating that if I were to not buy it, our relationship might be in jeopardy...at which point I almost backed out entirely...I don't like that kind of pressure...

Anyway...he softened and went on to say that I could count on his continued purchases and it would really help him out if I would buy the set...

We shook hands and the deal was done...

Since then he has followed through and made a number of significant purchases...right now he has money down on a nice Morgan I have on consignment from another forum member here...

Well, recently I submitted a number of coins to PCGS and amongst them the 1909-S IHC from this set...it looked like a decent G6 or VG8...I chose not to submit the 1877 due to a gentle but fairly obvious old cleaning and details of AG3 or G4...and as I said above...I chose to put it in my 7070...

Unfortunately, I never scrutinized the 1909-S mintmark...due to the wear and overall appearance, it never occured to me that it might not be genuine...big mistake...PCGS BB'd it...added MM...

Just got it back today, and upon closer inspection I can see that the MM is not properly located...too low and it does look a bit "off"...OK ... lesson learned...


Sooooo...now I need to make a decision...

Do I tell this customer about this? At the very least, he should be informed so that he can be more careful in the future as I now know to do...shouldn't he? (No...I do not think he knows/knew it was an added MM).

Should I ask him to "buy it back"? (I'm not sure if that is the right thing to do...after all, I am the "dealer" and "should have known better"... and besides, is it worth possibly losing a business relationship?)

Do I simply "eat it" and keep the coin as a sort of "trophy" to remind myself to be more careful...and as an example of a Not Genuine coin?


What would you do? If you were the collector/customer in this situation, how would you like it handled? If you were the Dealer, how would you handle it?

I'd like to hear from Dealers as well as Collectors...

Thank you...


(edited to change title...put added date...meant added mintmark...sorry... )

Rampage

Good luck with the problem. I don't know how II would handle it off hand.

cape

I would most definately inform him, probably eat it but you have to let him know.

claychaser

Many dealers I know would put it in their "I paid my dues and tuition" box, given the moderate to significant value of G example of this date, and the fact that you purchased all of the other coins in the series. This one would probably be about the profit in the deal. I am not a dealer myself, so it's easy for me to opine on this! Maybe its like telling someone else how to raise their kids........

ahooka454

thats a tuff one. i would eat it and use it as a tool. you still got some nice coins out of the deal right?

i wouldnt want to lose a good buyer. i would tell him so he knows to be more careful next time.


sorry to hear about it though.

291fifth

As a dealer, you should write it off as a lesson learned. Always check the keys closely. Too much time has passed.

tjkillian

I would inform him and let him make the first offer to refund you the money. Any honest person will buy it back from you, even if he thought it was genuine.

zeek

Sea,

By all means, inform your customer, but not to expect a refund. Admittedly you overlooked the coin, your mistake. You even shook hands and sealed the deal. Reverse the shoes. Would you buy it back? What's it been? A month? Old saying, "You made your bed, now lay in it."

RayNY2E

Sorry to Hear What Happened..But,I would Have to Agree that,as a Dealer,you should most probably eat this one and Inform the Seller of the situation. Sure it's a loss now,but you did say the seller is a good buyer and will continue to buy from you,soo I think you'll make up lost ground in the Long Term and Maybe he'll Refer a few People Your Way for taking this one on the Chin and Being a Stand Up Seller.It's probably happened to alot of Us along the way and when it does happen to you,it's not a "Happy" feeling,but in time you'll get over it and most of All remember it. I agree that Checking the "Key Dates" is a Must! Good Luck in Whatever You Decide to Do. Ray in Florida..

Rollerman

It sounds like your relationship with this customer is purely professional, since he threatened to take his business elsewhere if you didn't buy the IHC set. I'm not a dealer, but if I were, I'd just owe up to the mistake in a way that wasn't accusatory, abnd eat the mistake. I'd offer to show him the problem with the coin. If he's a good person, he should feel a little sheepish about his "hard sell" and appreciate you're giving him a "heads up" as well. In other words, it should make him want to do business with you.
Hope it all works out.
Pete

MoneyCollector

<< <i>Sea,

By all means, inform your customer, but not to expect a refund. Admittedly you overlooked the coin, your mistake. You even shook hands and sealed the deal. Reverse the shoes. Would you buy it back? What's it been? A month? Old saying, "You made your bed, now lay in it." >>

braddick

There are many collectors whose ethics rise above the standard and although you as a Dealer are responsible for what you buy, ultimately, I don't believe it would cause harm to have an exchange with the seller/customer and see if you can't come to a meeting of the minds.

He may just simply surprise you.

drwstr123

(Tell him right after you close the deal on selling him a Trade Dollar from China.)




I would let him know, seems like you both were taken and will learn from this. Mike

AUandAG

Eat it....what did you pay? Wholesale is what? $225 in VG....

bob

Swampboy

<< <i>There are many collectors whose ethics rise above the standard and although you as a Dealer are responsible for what you buy, ultimately, I don't believe it would cause harm to have an exchange with the seller/customer and see if you can't come to a meeting of the minds.

He may just simply surprise you. >>



I agree.

SeaEagleCoins

I want to thank all who offered their ideas...

Seems the right thing to do is to simply inform him of the BB and lesson learned...offer to show him what is wrong with this one and how to spot it in the future...I will not ask for any buy-back...

If he offers to buy it back without reservation or hesitation...I will probably do that...

...otherwise...I'll chalk it up to more of my tuition expenses...


Live and Learn...



Hopefully...this will be like getting myself "stuck" in my zipper...

I think every man has done this once...but I'd find it hard to believe anyone ever did it twice...

ahooka454

Hopefully...this will be like getting myself "stuck" in my zipper...

I think every man has done this once...but I'd find it hard to believe anyone ever did it twice...

thats funny as hE!!

dwssws

Hopefully...this will be like getting myself "stuck" in my zipper...

I think every man has done this once...but I'd find it hard to believe anyone ever did it twice...

unless they enjoy pain!

Mercury10c

It seems to me that you are making a fair amount of money off this guy still, so I say just eat the loss and don't tell him about it.
I don't see that you have anything to gain by telling him, and everything to lose. On the other hand,
if you are comfortable losing this customers business, then you should tell him.

SeaEagleCoins

<< <i>It seems to me that you are making a fair amount of money off this guy still, so I say just eat the loss and don't tell him about it.
I don't see that you have anything to gain by telling him, and everything to lose. On the other hand,
if you are comfortable losing this customers business, then you should tell him. >>




Yet...don't you think it would be good to 'educate' him so he hopefully doesn't make this mistake again? I mean...I'll certainly look at any raw coin he offers me much closer in the future.

I wouldn't consider telling him in any accusatory way...just to share the lesson learned...

thebeav

I would just eat it and move on.
No matter how you present it to him, he'll feel you're trying to sell it back, or, in some way, get some restitution.

Monstavet

you eat it, IMO. you had time to evaluate the coins and make offers - part of that evaluation should have included examining key dates closely for signs of fraud. I certainly think it would be appropriate to use the coin as a teaching tool to help educate the original owner, but that is all. Sorry that happended!

robkool

There's not much you can do in this situation... He honestly knew all his IHC were geniune. Just eat the cost. Lesson learned...

ArizonaJack

Tuition box

But you should let him know for 2 reasons. You will not be so casual on further buys from him, and as a trusted dealer, you owe it to him to inform him that the seller he bought it from sold him a fake, intentional or not does not matter

jdimmick

I would inform him that it was in fact , not genuine, however dont expect a refund as its your loss being the dealer. Sorry to hear that as a mistake buy can erase pratically all of the profit margin on the deal.

jim


Dont be malitious and sell it to another unsuspecting customer as a local vest pocket dealer here did just last week. He purchased one from a walk-in customer (who I think knew) sent it to PCGS, where it came back removed MM), and ended up listing on E-bay as raw genuine coin.

RBinTex

pics?

SeaEagleCoins

<< <i>I would inform him that it was in fact , not genuine, however dont expect a refund as its your loss being the dealer. Sorry to hear that as a mistake buy can erase pratically all of the profit margin on the deal.

jim


Dont be malitious and sell it to another unsuspecting customer as a local vest pocket dealer here did just last week. He purchased one from a walk-in customer (who I think knew) sent it to PCGS, where it came back removed MM), and ended up listing on E-bay as raw genuine coin. >>




Not to worry, Jim... I would never consider selling this coin as genuine...not my style

...there is another dealer who is a member of the same coin club I belong to...he has amassed quite a collection of counterfeit and altered coins over the years... as training tools and to keep unscrupulous folks from pawning them off on the unsuspecting...he showed the collection, in a presentation to our club, a few months ago (maybe I should have paid more attention...LOL)

... I may end up offering it to him if I decide to not keep it for myself.

And as for the 'loss'... originally, I bought this collection mainly as a gesture of goodwill towards this customer/collector...and, frankly...I like the guy. After putting the 1877 in my 7070, I had no chance of "making a profit" on this collection (of course, I may sell the 7070 collection some day...but that won't be anytime soon)...

It all adds up to my further education...and maybe a little education for the person I purchased it from.

maddogale

I am pretty much in agreement with the others who feel that having bought the set without closer inspection, you should just "eat it" and count it up to experience, but more importantly, as a learning tool; not only for yourself, but others as well.
Showcase it as a prime example of an altered coin. But with all due respect for your customer, he should be in on the education! He needs to see firsthand how the coin was altered. We all come to these forums and to seminars to learn more of the hobby we enjoy. This above all else is part of that learning. By helping others with lessons learned from our mistakes, we help them save themselves (hopefully) from doing the same. He should be told, and in a manner where he can be assured that you are only helping him save himself from another fake...(such as a 1916-d dime) Perhaps he will offer to split the difference, but if not, that should be okay too. I should think he would appreciate your help, perhaps even coming back for more purchases.

SeaEagleCoins

<< <i>pics? >>




Best I can do with a scanner at 300dpi... the white speck on the top of the mint mark is dust or something...not on the coin. Note the low placement of the MM...there really is nothing unusual going on around the MM...for a fake it was well done...except for the placement...

jdimmick

Small Pic, but you can tell

TomB

I would tell him of the added mintmark, but would not ask for him to buy the coin back. If, however, he volunteers to take the piece back then that would be a welcomed turn of events.

sTONER

sorry my friend, its a learning experience 4 you,,

joecopper

I agree with the others, you need to tell him but not ask for compensation.

The seller upon hearing and seeing it should volunteer to take it back.

If he did, i would split.

Another take - is there any chance he knew it which is why he used the valued customer pitch?

Unknown

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Julian

I would definitely ask the customer if he knew where the 9-s came from. If he did, I would ask him to try and get a refund on the coin.

If he does not remember, then you can chalk it up if the customer feels no obligation, but if he does know where it came from then by all means pursue that person for a refund.

It is illegal to sell altered coins and there is no deal completed if the coin is not genuine.

I believe that legally speaking you are entitled to a refund from your customer and your customer is entitled to a refund from the person that he purchased it from.

Russ

<< <i>Hopefully...this will be like getting myself "stuck" in my zipper...

I think every man has done this once...but I'd find it hard to believe anyone ever did it twice... >>



Precisely why I wear only 501's.

Russ, NCNE

lkenefic

As a collector, I would welcome the chance to see what an added MM looks like and as a sometimes-seller I would welcome the chance to re-coup some of the loss. I think Julians' response is good. See if he remembers where he got the coin from and pursue that avenue... it could be a learning experience for both of you.

Leo

Geoman

I would just eat it and move on.

I also agree.

tggr

simply "eat it" and keep the coin as a sort of "trophy" to remind myself to be more careful...and as an example of a Not Genuine coin?

tightbudget

Bite the bullet. Take it as a lesson and perhaps donate it to someone who might use it as an educational tool in a counterfeit detection class.

rec78

Given the circumstances i would say that the seller may have known that the 1909-S indian was a fake or perhaps was told by another dealer that it may not be genuine. Seems like he was in a rush to push the set on you. I agree with julian's assessment of this situation...HOWEVER, when you contact the seller he may just say it is not the same coin. You have to be resourceful in your approach to let him know it is not genuine and show him the BB from PCGS...Of course if you do it this way it may seem like you are not the professional dealer that you are supposed to be..But then-- i have seen the best of dealers get stuck with bad coins in weak moments. BTW, I am a collector, not a dealer. Bob

BIGJAYVEE

Larry,I agree with most of the replies here.You have to eat it and keep quiet.But,I will say the next time this fellow steps up to your table,you will have a different feeling about him,even if he buys and definetly if he wants to sell.Just human nature.Somewhere there has to be a little trust between dealer and buyer.His fault or not the trust is gone.