"This coin was gently cleaned, generations ago"-- should I no longer readily dismiss thes
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
I have been taking a look at a major auction catalog, and some of the lots are <gasp> raw. For many of the lots, they are described as "gently cleaned, generations ago". I typically immediately dismiss these coins from my consideration. However, since the cleaning is so gentle and it was done generations ago, should I so readily dismiss these coins? Perhaps they are not as bad as they seem, and the passage of time makes the gentle cleaning less of an issue (or perhaps the cataloger is just being conservative and simply noting the cleaning for full disclosure purposes). What do you think?
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
How about "gently reconditioned after being at the bottom of the sea" ?
<< <i>In most cases, if the coin has really been gently cleaned several generations ago, this will not be disclosed. When the catalog states that the coin has been "gently cleaned, generations ago", it was really "scrubbed to within an inch of its life, last week". >>
Hmmm, this sure don't sound like "Happy Talk."
<< <i>In most cases, if the coin has really been gently cleaned several generations ago, this will not be disclosed. When the catalog states that the coin has been "gently cleaned, generations ago", it was really "scrubbed to within an inch of its life, last week". This is based on my personal experience and that of others may differ. >>
then what happened to the generations between last week and before?
How long is a generation?
Where is BONGOBONGO when you need him/her?
Inquiring minds need to know!
Then a clever doc job followed by "the old time cleaning" pitch.
You know the rest.
if it's readily available in no-problem condition, I won't touch a problem coin.
for "generations ago" cleanings, it must be an old coin and if it's rare too, I'm quite forgiving of little and even big flaws.
I consider a truly gentle cleaning to be pretty minor for draped bust and early capped bust (especially vs scratches, digs, grafitti, and holes)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Didn't hurt me non.
Camelot
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
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Stacks Description:
1825 O-101. Rarity-1. Brilliant Uncirculated-60,
but lightly cleaned. Recoloring with deep blue centers and a frame of rather vibrant orange-russet. Close study reveals minor hairlines beneath the color and a softly struck area on the lower reverse.
<< <i>
<< <i>In most cases, if the coin has really been gently cleaned several generations ago, this will not be disclosed. When the catalog states that the coin has been "gently cleaned, generations ago", it was really "scrubbed to within an inch of its life, last week". >>
Hmmm, this sure don't sound like "Happy Talk."
To be fair, it is the expectation that many/most of the early coins have been cleaned at some point, and this is almost never disclosed, in writing, by even the most honest and open sellers. When a problem (prior cleaning, mark, scratch, dig, planchet flaw, lamination, etc.) is mentioned in a description, it is usually noteworthy and obvious.
Something that's scrubbed to within an inch of its life is just fugly and really has no place in my collection.
Really, it comes down to whether or not I think the specimen I'm looking at is among the better surviving specimens in terms of eye appeal. I've seen some "lightly cleaned" coins which looked better than some "original" coins (this is the exception, not the rule).
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>In most cases, if the coin has really been gently cleaned several generations ago, this will not be disclosed. When the catalog states that the coin has been "gently cleaned, generations ago", it was really "scrubbed to within an inch of its life, last week". >>
Hmmm, this sure don't sound like "Happy Talk."
To be fair, it is the expectation that many/most of the early coins have been cleaned at some point, and this is almost never disclosed, in writing, by even the most honest and open sellers. When a problem (prior cleaning, mark, scratch, dig, planchet flaw, lamination, etc.) is mentioned in a description, it is usually noteworthy and obvious. >>
A word about CLEANING: Many, many 18th and 19th century coins have been cleaned at some time in their history. Surprised? Consider the many Mint State white silver coins 150 to 210 years old often seen in the big-time auctions. Exactly what storage method was used to keep that 1795 half dollar white for 210 years? There weren't slabs back then, or flips, or 2x2's, or plastic, or any of the storage methods currently used. The inescapable conclusion is that most of the "blast white" silver coins that are 200 or so years old have probably been dipped! Therefore, on this site, I have not described coins as "having an old, light cleaning" unless the cleaning has caused an unnatural look to the coin. I do back up all of the coins I sell with the return privilege described below.
The previous paragraph is from my website and is an exception to the "almost never disclosed" part of RYK's comments.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Just don't scrub that baby down to bare metal and then describe it as "original finish" after you repaint it.
I knew it would happen.
The previous paragraph is from my website and is an exception to the "almost never disclosed" part of RYK's comments.
Rich,
By all accounts you are a good guy, and, in many ways, probably the exception to the rule. However, it took me about 3 seconds to find a coin from your site which proves my point. A coin that has been cleaned, looks unnatural, and this is not disclosed. I do not think that you have done any wrong, as it is the industry standard (ie. market acceptable).
This coin:
Has this description:
1827 Half, O-136, R-4, MPD with top loop 8 in denticles, EF. A struck-thru smudge on reverse. Another dealer has an AU for nearly $1,000.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>How many of these early coins with "light cleaning" are in PCGS or NGC slabs?
Gazillions!
<< <i>How many of these early coins with "light cleaning" are in PCGS or NGC slabs?
I have several.....
<< <i>
<< <i>How many of these early coins with "light cleaning" are in PCGS or NGC slabs?
Gazillions! >>
So, PCGS and NGC already do slab problem coins. I guess the problem has to be market acceptable.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
as much as we do because it appears to be cleaned. By the same token, of
course, a cleaned coin looks unnatural and to the degree it looks unnatural it
is unappealing.
But the simple fact is that even wear is a sort of cleaning. Coins naturally get
into places and situations where there surfaces are abraided away or shined
up. Usually dirt accumulates on a coin in circulation at about the same rate it's
worn off but this isn't always the case. Then collectors, especially beginners,
will remove dirt and surfaces in an attempt to make the coin look better. They
often succeed by their own standards but in the process damage the coin for
other collectors.
You can't really tell when a coin was cleaned. Just because there appears to be
lots of time since the cleaning doesn't mean there was. A copper coin can age
in only a few months in a hot enviroment.
The point is that the overall look of the coin should be assessed in determining
its value to you. It's possible to pick up many coins ridiculously cheap if a little
cleaning doesn't appall you. Light cleanings are easily worn away if you carry
the coin as a pocket piece so this should be factored into the price.
Carrying a pocket piece isn'r always easy and they can be lost or inadvertantly
spent.