My latest email to an Ebay powerseller....

DoubleEagle59

This is what I just wrote him.......

Hello, I think I have purchased from you a long time ago. I am very interested in this dime. But I have to lodge a small complaint and please don't take this the wrong way. I was very disappointed to see that you have 'photoshopped' this coin. Upon magnification, it is very evident that you have 'smoothed' out the area around the date and other areas on the obverse. There is a very easy technique to see this and I must say, about 30% of all coin sellers on Ebay do this. It is very discouraging indeed.


I tried to be as polite as possible, but I can only guess how rude his response will be. I'll try to post it as it arrives.

Meiji

Pictures?

Russ

Link?

Russ, NCNE

notwilight

one reason I try hard to shoot photos that don't need any adjustment. Lately I've managed to not even need to crop most of them. I leave them named the number that the camera assigns them. Jerry

doh

I wouldn't expect a very nice answer....unless he feels guilty that you caught him. I would like to see a link to the auctions in question.

PerryHall

This thread is worthless without a link the the auction.

DoubleEagle59

Below is the picture of the coin and the item number.

I'm unable to download the 500% microsoftword picture to here (that shows the photoshopped pic).

Canada 1903 10 Cents Choice AU //FC2-5963 Item number: 170181311270




sorry for the error, but he is not a Powerseller (doesn't really matter in this case).

notwilight

<< <i> sorry for the error, but he is not a Powerseller (doesn't really matter in this case). >>



It never matters.

jonathanb

Sorry, I don't see any evidence of tampering. That's a low-resolution picture. I see the compression artifacts that are a consequence of the jpg format, but I don't see anything that indicates anything unreasonable.

notwilight

<< <i>Sorry, I don't see any evidence of tampering. That's a low-resolution picture. I see the compression artifacts that are a consequence of the jpg format, but I don't see anything that indicates anything unreasonable. >>



Most programs let you set the quality of the resized jpg. Perhaps 30% of ebay sellers select low quality to make the photos smaller and the OP is seeing compression artifacts. --Big Picture Jerry

DoubleEagle59

Here's a magnified picture. Look at the fields around all the lettering.

I hope no one here disagrees with me after viewing this evidence.

doh

Gotta admit, those fields look smooth and not grainy like the rest of the pic. Sure smells like tampering to me, but I can't be certain.

jonathanb

Absolutely typical of the compression artifacts seen in jpgs. The areas of minimal color change (the fields) will not show artifacts. Artifacts will be see around sharp changes in color (the edges of the letters, etc).

I see no foul play, just teensy pictures with high compression.

DoubleEagle59

When a picture is tampered with, it's always the fields and large smooth areas, such as the cheek area on the Morgan dollar.

Tampering can't be done where there are details on the coin , such as letters. This will obliterate the letters, making it extremely obvious that tampering has been done.

Also, a notable difference in 'grain' is also a key indication of tampering.

I should post a large picture of an UNtampered coin, as this would show the difference a lot better.

DoubleEagle59

Absolutely typical of the compression artifacts seen in jpgs. The areas of minimal color change (the fields) will not show artifacts. Artifacts will be see around sharp changes in color (the edges of the letters, etc).

In my opinion, you are dead wrong.

SpaceMonkey

for comparission... i took an image of mine... resized... save as low jpg and then scaled up... NO CLONING OR OTHER REPAIRS... it is very possible what you are seeing on the seller pix is only compression... anything is possible... but could very likely be just compression.








-sm

doh

Space monkey makes a very good point. Thanks for the pictures!

jonathanb

<< <i>In my opinion, you are dead wrong. >>



OK, let's move from opinion to fact.

1) I took the original (small) picture and made a "coin" with a totally smooth surface:



2a) Then I took and added some text and a "wreath" and saved the file without compression:



2b) Then I took and saved the exact same file with compression:



The same picture, enlarged:





As you can see, the areas around the design get fuzzy, while the areas in the "fields" stay smooth. This is what compression does. There was absolutely no change to the document between pictures (2a) and (2b). I didn't touch the file, I just saved it again with different saving settings. The end result exactly matches the quality of the original picture.

Batman23

jonathanb, great example. Great to know.

ahooka454

wow jonathanb, i never saw that type stuff. I am glad posters like you are here. I agree with the picture beining the culprit. I may be wrong but I think its just the photo.

sonoranmonsoon

Wow, nice lesson. I was having trouble seeing what you were talking about until you did the sketch.

57loaded

<< <i>Here's a magnified picture. Look at the fields around all the lettering.

I hope no one here disagrees with me after viewing this evidence >>



it all looks good to me...your hope is dashed!

hope he doesn't block you

relicsncoins

I see a blocking in your near future.

mozeppa

I didn't need any eamples....

dude yer wrong!

I'm with jonathanb on this one.

Petescorner

nice illustration, jonathan

MikeInFL

OK, I am coming back from the posting-netherlands to set the record straight.

This seller's photos are using high JPEG compression, and it is the compression that is fooling the OP (and others) to incorrectly assume the photos have been doctored.

I am 99.99% sure what you are seeing is JPEG artifacts (the 0.01% chance is that the seller blurred the photos before adding jpeg compression).

The reason that I know this to be the case are:

1) I've done it before.
2) The artifacts/blurry areas are square in nature (a dead giveaway they are JPEG compresion).
3) They are only in the areas that lack detail (again, a dead giveaway it is JPEG compression).

Blowing up the photo does nothing but make the JPEG artifacts bigger and make it easier to identify them for what they are.

Mr. Goodman, would you please pipe up and confirm/deny the above....Mike

p.s. FWIW, I have 10 years of digital photography and photoshop experience and have written JPEG compression routines.

MikeInFL

p.s. DE59 you owe the seller an apology, IMO.

MikeInFL

An example to illustrate what I'm talking about:

Level 12 compression (lowest setting):


Level 10


Level 8


Level 6


Level 4


Level 2 (note: field blurring)


Level 0 (note: even more field blurring w/square artifacts)


Hope this helps...Mike

seatedcoins

I completely disagree with the statements saying it hasn't been doctored. It seems pretty clear the healing brush has been used with regards to the fields. I do respect you for not listing the eBayers handle since it is an accusation. I think I've seen you make a comment like that before. Can you post the picture of the coin you received. It would definitely support your accusation.

I would be interested in seeing this sellers other coins. Only because someone who does this would be sure to repeat it.

seatedcoins

Mike I see what you're saying, but do not see what looks like the healing brush has been used in your photos.

vplite

<< <i>Here's a magnified picture. Look at the fields around all the lettering.

I hope no one here disagrees with me after viewing this evidence. >>



No question. A definite Photoshop job. You were very nice to this rip-off "artist".

vplite

Note that in Jonathanb's example the blur or whatever takes place around the details, not in the open fields. In clear fields there is more accurate compression since the same pixel is being repeated. I might be wrong but this sure looks like the "blur tool was used.

MikeInFL

<< <i>Mike I see what you're saying, but do not see what looks like the healing brush has been used in your photos. >>



That's because you're not looking closely enough or the large photos are fooling you.

I resized my photos down to 250 pixels square, then zoomed in, and viola:



See any field smoothing now?

Really guys, you don't know what you're talking about. Respectfully...Mike

Mercury10c

I can see the area in question, and I agree that it has probably been touched up.
My question is, do you plan on bidding on this coin? If the answer is yes, why?
If the answer is no, why did you feel the need to email him? Don't waste your time.

mgoodm3

I have to agree with MikeinFL and JonathanB on this one. Looks like typical jpg compression artifacts. JPG uses block of similar color to get the compression. The blocks that are in the fields are compressed more heavily because they have more uniform color and thus the look smooth. The blocks that intersect the relief can't be compressed as much and thus have more detail. This results in the appearance of field smoothing.

mgoodm3

The fields are all jpg artifact.

coinman420

most of the pics that i look at from ebay do this when i download them and enlarge. just compression IMO.

when i photograph coins all i do is upload to photobucket which automaticly resizes to a pc screen.

no cropping, no color adjustment, no white balance adjustment.

my pics are not the best but they`re honest.

if you think he doctored the photos then just move on......
















and out him here

Bochiman

First thing I thought of was jpg compression...I see others think that as well.
2nd think I thought of was how people like to jump all over someone with "powerseller" and make it sound like a big thing when they can attack them....

There are good powersellers and bad ones. There are good ebayers and bad ones. Let things stand on their own, regardless of any title.

Again, for the coin in question, I lean towards compression and, absent a larger, better, picture without all that compression being jacked up in size, or coin in hand, I won't be joining a witchhunt.

OP...if you have bought from the seller before you probably just made his blocked bidder list. I know I would do that if someone accused me, incorrectly, of something as heinous as doctoring a photo.

slipgate

100% it is jpg compression and NOT tampering. You should aplogize to him. A better choice would have been to ask for a higher resolution picture.

Smitty79

<< <i>This is what I just wrote him.......

Hello, I think I have purchased from you a long time ago. I am very interested in this dime. But I have to lodge a small complaint and please don't take this the wrong way. I was very disappointed to see that you have 'photoshopped' this coin. Upon magnification, it is very evident that you have 'smoothed' out the area around the date and other areas on the obverse. There is a very easy technique to see this and I must say, about 30% of all coin sellers on Ebay do this. It is very discouraging indeed.


I tried to be as polite as possible, but I can only guess how rude his response will be. I'll try to post it as it arrives. >>



Wow. You could have saved the both of you some time and the stress on your keyboard if you would've simply wrote him and said...

Please, oh please, block me from bidding on this item. Thank you.

FWIW, methinks you're wrong regarding the pic. Technology really bit you in the butt with this one, bud.

DoubleEagle59

Just got back from visiting friends and see I have a hornets nest in my hand.

OK...I see the points made by MikeInFL and must commend him on his knowledge and hard work.

Maybe, just maybe in this particular case only, I may have jumped the gun. I will consider sending the seller an apology (I'll check out more of his auctions and I'll decide later). I have no problem apologizing when I'm wrong (it won't be the first time!).

The reason I may have jumped on this seller is because I have seen so many more blatant examples from other sellers in the past both on and off of Ebay.

I still want to make it clear that I feel that quite a lot of sellers improve their pictures. How do I know?

First of all, through experience, by purchasing and receiving a coin that has a huge gash on the cheek of a Morgan, that was definitely not on the Ebay picture. A blatant case of photo manipulation.

Secondly, by magnifying pictures and seeing where this occurs. PM me and will direct you to many more examples. It is very time consuming for me to magnify, save, load pics to imagehosting and then repost here.

Anyways, that's how I feel. I'm still undecided about this coin.

Griv

The picture is inconclusive in terms of doctoring. The added noise/distortion associated with the detail is absolutely normal under several cases but not all. I suggest that you make sure that you can return the coin if it doesn't meet your expectations like the thousands of us other collectors do and not raise an issue that is far from conclusive into debate.

MarkInDavis

Have a third party ask for a larger higher res picture and see what that shows.

MikeInFL

DE59,

Hey man, please don't get me wrong, I'm all for a public flogging when it is deserved, and IMO, you are 100% right when you said this:

"I have seen so many more blatant examples from other sellers in the past both on and off of Ebay"

You are right, there are lots of sellers that do doctor their images, and we should all do more to identify them and warn others/eBay of them. Unfortunately, you have fallen quite short of showing that this seller is one of them.

Going forward, just remember to look for the telltale squares in areas that lack contrast (like the fields). If you see them when you blow the photo up, understand that they are JPEG compression artifacts.

Now, back into PCGS retirement. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to PM me or post over on the NGC forums. Have fun..Mike

p.s. If the seller were really sneaky, he could either blur the photo before compressing it, or just crank up the compression on purpose, but I see no evidence of that.