Will counterfeit slabs with counterfeit coins crash the coin market?

Pushkin

The recent post of a fairly high quality counterfeit NGC slab and a not so easy-to-detect counterfeit 1796 $ seems to raise some serious issues about the future of numismatics.

Trust is essential in maintaining the liquidity of quality coins, with collectors and dealers relying heavily on the grading services as a guarantee of coin authenticity. Imagine a scenario of medium priced coins (perhaps in the $300 - $3000 range) showing up in significant quantities at coin shows, eBay, etc.; key and semi-key Vfs, Xfs, and AUs for example. What would a trickle that turned into a flood do to the market and the hobby? Are the grading services prepared to look at new and potentially expensive technologies to tighten the security of their slabs? Will we see new services adding security measures and additional “authenticity certifications” to coins?

I would not expect to see many high end counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs, they get too much scrutiny.

If the counterfeiters from Asia, and perhaps organized crime see an opportunity for easy profit bny producing a serious number fo quality counterfeit coins how will the numismatic community respond? If quality dies can be produced, and minor blemishes, nicks, etc. added to make it difficult to differentiate one coin from another how will counterfeiting be easily thwarted? If counterfeiters focus on coins that don't have a lot of varieties to help differentiate between coins what can the collectors and dealers do to determine authenticity especially since many dealers can't grade well, let alone detect quality counterfeits.

Let's hope the TGPs are seriously looking at and making plans to address this problem. Without trust in the product our hobby may be in for some very difficult times?

Chickenlittle, Head-In-The-Sand, or a real threat?

ahooka454

I collect alot of collector grade stuff and am disabled. I rely heavily on the internet to buy coins for my collection. This worries me greatly. I know the basics to smell a scam, but the coin referranced here I saw too on ebay. It was convincing enough for me to look at it 3-4 times. You had to really look at it and not at the coin. The label. It was the best fake I have ever seen.


This needs to stay at the top of the boards....

MrEureka

Of course it's a real threat. Of course the TPGs will deal with it. But it will be expensive for them.

Pushkin

I have been concerned about this issue for several years and I limit most of my purchases (probably) 90% to a very few trusted dealers that stand behind their coins and that know their coins.


Mr. Eureka wrote:
Of course the TPGs will deal with it.

Good, I feel much better now, having faith in their wisdom and ability to respond quickly .

291fifth

I've already commented on this threat several times in other threads.

Remember that this already happened in the distant past (1989, I believe) when 1st generation PCGS "rattler" slabs were counterfeited. I seem to recall that mostly Morgan dollars were involved at that early date.

I also recall a thread about an NGC slab that some thought was a counterfeit (a typeface didn't seem right) but I don't recall hearing just what the final determination, real or fake, actually was.

Could counterfeit slabs cause the coin market to crash? If the counterfeit slabs were of a high enough quality it would be a possibility.

Edited to correct a date.

cullenbryant

Provided it continues, which seems entirely likely, it will completely obliterate numimstic premiums.

I and probably most everyone here have enough sense to buy from a "trusted" dealer or someone who is completely sure
of what they are handling... even the mint purchase are 100% authentic without question...
however, that is only a small part of the story. What happens when I decide to sell. (I'm neither a trusted dealer or would be trusted by anyone else to know exactly what i'm handling)...

So the collector has to look at that end of the equation and that will be where things dry up from, at least for me. Not in the purchasing suspicion, but the aspect of MY resale.

segoja

No...It'll get nipped quick, but always know your coins. That's the only insurance!!!

Pushkin

<< <i>I've already commented on this threat several times in other threads.

Remember that this already happened in the distant past (1889, I believe) when 1st generation PCGS "rattler" slabs were counterfeited. I seem to recall that mostly Morgan dollars were involved at that early date.

I also recall a thread about an NGC slab that some thought was a counterfeit (a typeface didn't seem right) but I don't recall hearing just what the final determination, real or fake, actually was.

Could counterfeit slabs cause the coin market to crash? If the counterfeit slabs were of a high enough quality it would be a possibility. >>



Like you I also have commented on the issue in the past. However it seems that before either the numbers were small or the quality was poor. We seem to be seeing a significant increase of better quality counterfeits coming out of Asia. With enough resources I think it's not unreasonable to imagine high quality counterfeit coins and high quality counterfeit slabs in increasing numbers. Just think how liquid PCGS and NGC slabs are.

Are the services investigating embedded magnetic strips and other measures to tighten up the security of their slabs? It seems to me that so far their emphasis has been on slab security to thwart coin substitution.

cullenbryant

it's not just collector coins that are suspect.. the very future of coins has come into question recently
with the discovery of a guy self minting euros over in britain. it's believed something like 10% -20% of the circulating
euros are impeccible fakes.

Doogy

once these babies start pouring in, with the 'PCGS' stamp on the bottom and a real looking insert, look out!

coinkat

Sometimes the best defense is a good offense...

lasvegasteddy

ya know the secret service will pounce on those 33' double eagles or if a 64 peace surfaces,
where are they with ebay for being accomplice to allowing such devastation to unfold???

sinin1

I don't think so,


but never forget -> buy the coin, not the slab

ahooka454

I am scared. Really really scared...

LonerAnger

<< <i>once these babies start pouring in, with the 'PCGS' stamp on the bottom and a real looking insert, look out!

>>



But that will never happen. Nuh-uh. No way. Never.

I can tell you that just REPLICA antique toys destroyed the market 10 years ago and it has NEVER recovered. Coins are worth melt. Nothing more. All extra "value" is entertainment.

pb2y

Counterfeiters are probably reading these threads
and gaining info which will improve their crooked art.
The best "stuff" is yet to come.
Buy form US dealers only who offer money back gaurantees.

ahooka454

Antique toys are great. if they were handed down through generations. Cins, real coins have identifiers. If you know what your doing, its easy for someone with an I.Q. greater than a bowl of pudding. Coins have been through and survived every major collapse of collectibles in general. To say they are worth just melt is the most ignorant thing I have heard on the boards yet. Buy a book, do the research and buy from known dealers. I make it a habit to buy from guys I can find. If they are a ghosts you will be sc&%d.

To say that coins are worth melt only is a thought of a none collector.

Silverstate

OK,
You can make a great holder, let say.
You can find some marginal coins or fakes to put into them.

How can you put a VALID PCGS number on the holder that can pass the certification test?

It will never happen.

So, If you choose to NOT verify your coins, you are left wide open.

Pushkin

<< <i>OK,
You can make a great holder, let say.
You can find some marginal coins or fakes to put into them.

How can you put a VALID PCGS number on the holder that can pass the certification test?

It will never happen.

So, If you choose to NOT verify your coins, you are left wide open. >>




Verification means nothing. Valid certification numbers are available everywhere; auctions, shows, this forum. Verification numbers actually help counterfeiters, they give the counterfeit slab a further appearance of validity. The recent NGC 1796 $ counterfeit had a valid cert number.

ProofCollection

Perhaps everyone will have to "register" their coins, like in a registry...

Then when you go to buy a coin, you check to see that the seller is the registered owner. You can see the path of ownership... If you don't mind people knowing what you've got.

pb2y

And it quickly gains in complexity.
The perfect fake slab, the perfect fake coin
and a valid certification number. These matters
are being resolved now by counterfeiters
and all it takes is a final polish job.
After that, nothing left but microscopic inspection.
Who will do this?

EagleEye

Nothing beats education. Just knowing there is a possibilty of a fake slab, might make you slightly more protected than the poor rank amature who just wants to get a collection fast and cheap.

ArizonaJack

The idea of RF chips in slabs has been mentioned on another site

jmski52

ya know the secret service will pounce on those 33' double eagles or if a 64 peace surfaces,
where are they with ebay for being accomplice to allowing such devastation to unfold???

Interesting observation. I would think that the same laws regarding counterfeiting and legal tender apply to ebay and chinese importers that apply to U.S. citizens.

FullStepJeffs

I'll worry about it when the <$1000 Jefferson Nickels are faked. Until then, sucks to be a NGC (I almost said classic) collector.

J/K... It will get fixed, eventually.

Steve

UtahCoin

I'm not so much worried about fake coins in fake slabs as I am about real coins in fake slabs. So many people buy and sell coins based on the grade on the slab, consider this. Take a few GENUINE PCGS MS66 Morgan Dollars, crack them out and put them in a high quality fake MS67 slab, with all the right numbers, and you made more profit than selling fake coins in fake slabs.... Something to think about.