1837 CBH JR variety question. Or how about grade opinions? Bigger scans!

Dawg144

Hi all,

I'm pretty new to the CU Message Boards, so I don't know if any of you out there are Reeded Edge CBH gurus. Anyway, I was looking at Jules Reiver's Variety Identification Manual to try to determine the JR variety of a bustie half I picked up a recent local show. One thing I noticed right away was a discoloration that appeared to be the "7 high, slightly recut" that Reiver describes. Since I can't see any die cracks on the piece, I would guess the coin to be a JR-6a -- an R-5 variety. Since R-5 varieties are by definition pretty darn rare, there's a good chance that I was just seeing the recut 7 and that the coin is rather a JR-8a (an R-1). Here are my super unprofessional scans:



Am I crazy, or is that really the recut 7? Grade opinions appreciated, as well . In hindsight, I guess it's probably stupid to be asking a specialized question at midnight right before Christmas....

Thanks a lot in advance, and Merry Christmas!

Dawg

Steve27

"how about grade opinions?"

F15

Dawg144

TTT for the Christmas crowd

jdillane

I concur with the F15. Variety is tough with the images offered.

BLcoinnut

Where can you identify the variety type of Reeded Edge CBH,
what is the reference book called?

TomB

Jules Reiver wrote the Variety Identification Manual for RE halves, but the book is long out of print, has no images and is very difficult to use. Therefore, this helps to keep the numbers of folks who attribute their RE halves to a minimum. However, Heritage now has the book online and is free to access and use by simply clicking on any auction lot of a RE half.

Dawg144

Link

Well, there are images. Just not very many, and not the best at that.

numisma

Dawg, JR-6a is not an R.5 variety. It is considered an R.1. However, I don't think that your coin is either JR-6a or JR-8a. I think that your coin is a JR-14, which Reiver considered to be an R.7 variety. His rarity ratings are skewed though, so I wouldn't order that new Cadillac just yet. For example, the Reiver sale had 3 examples of JR-14 and only one of JR-6a in his main collection. The best way to determine the rarity rating of you Reeded Edge halves is to check auction records and try to determine for yourself. That is a difficult task, admittedly, since Heritage is the only auction house that will occasionally attribute RE halves. It is likely that JR-14 is only R.3 or R.4, based on the auction appearances at recent sales. And, since few people collect RE halves by die variety, there is usually little to no premium for the rare marriages.

The 1837 halves are difficult to attribute, unless you have one of the varieties with large cracks or die markers. In the absence of obvious markers, you have to look at other details, such as star positions in relation to the dentils, the shape of the dentils, positions and sizes of the letters and other subtle nuances. Also look for strike weakness in specific areas which are diagnostic for some varieties.

OKbustchaser

I agree with Dennis that it is JR-14. The die line in front of Liberty's ear is diagnostic to either JR-13 or 14. 13 has a die line through 50 Ce(nts) on the reverse. I also agree with him that it shouldn't be an R-7. Based on the ones I have seen in the past (and taking into account that while I don't really collect these my OCD requires that I attempt to attribute them) I think it is closer to an R-3.

Dawg144

Looking back at the manual, it does look like a JR-14. I discounted the possibility before because the date didn't look very evenly spaced, but I guess it is .

Thanks a lot for your expertise, guys. I really appreciate it.

HalfCollector

My first impression is also JR-14. The JR-14 has some small markers that probably would not be present on your coin due to wear. But, the lump in front of the fore-curl is diognostic along with the recutting on the 7. The JR-14 I carry as an R-3 but as previously mentioned, there is an R-7 collecting community so hence little premium is paid except for the extremly rare varieties.

The JR-14 reverse has a very thin die line that extends north from the junction of the top of the shield on the right side and the eagle's right wing ( as viewed ). This die line is best observed from a perpendicular view and extends about 1/2" up. Easily seen on high end specimens and less so on worn ones. The obverse as seen with this reverse comes with a lump in the field at about 10 o'clock from star 13 midway to hair. The earlier die states seem to show this lump, the mushy later states donot. Since the later states donot have crisp details to compare I am still looking for an example to compare to see if the are the same or possibly different varieties. Jules had both examples in his collection called JR-14 and he had 3 samples per Heritage auction. You could probably go to the archives and see the lump I mentioned, it should show up on the enlarged photos. I could pull out my catalog records and give you the exact lot# but this will be good practice for attributing Reeded Halves. Happy Hunting!

numisma

<< <i>My first impression is also JR-14. The JR-14 has some small markers that probably would not be present on your coin due to wear. But, the lump in front of the fore-curl is diognostic along with the recutting on the 7. The JR-14 I carry as an R-3 but as previously mentioned, there is an R-7 collecting community so hence little premium is paid except for the extremly rare varieties.

The JR-14 reverse has a very thin die line that extends north from the junction of the top of the shield on the right side and the eagle's right wing ( as viewed ). This die line is best observed from a perpendicular view and extends about 1/2" up. Easily seen on high end specimens and less so on worn ones. The obverse as seen with this reverse comes with a lump in the field at about 10 o'clock from star 13 midway to hair. The earlier die states seem to show this lump, the mushy later states donot. Since the later states donot have crisp details to compare I am still looking for an example to compare to see if the are the same or possibly different varieties. Jules had both examples in his collection called JR-14 and he had 3 samples per Heritage auction. You could probably go to the archives and see the lump I mentioned, it should show up on the enlarged photos. I could pull out my catalog records and give you the exact lot# but this will be good practice for attributing Reeded Halves. Happy Hunting! >>



HalfCollector, good to see you back again! I know that you are the authority on these, so your imput/confirmation is always appreciated.

Regarding the coin currently being discussed, I missed the lump in front of the curl. The images provided weren't the best (not large enough). Take a look at the dentilation on the obverse. It is different than most 1837's and I noticed the weakness at the rims on this variety. Also on the reverse, the 5 leaning right, the position of the T to the stem (very slight, I know, but it is there). The date as well: high 7, slightly fatter digits....but I can't see recutting in the image. Then the relation of star points to the dentils. going from an image and not the coin, these are the types of things I look for. These are tough to attribute, no question.

Dawg144

I apologize for my poor scans, but you guys are amazing nonetheless. Thank you! HalfCollector, I read your other posts, and you are a real wealth of information.

I took a look at the 3 Reiver specimens in Heritage's archives, and I'm seeing the temple lump and the field lump on the obverse, but not the vertical die line on the reverse. You're right, numisma, these are quite a bit harder to attribute than Overton halves. The prices these pieces realized really reflects a low interest in die variety on these halves.

In case anyone's astonished at my stupidity, I'm not a bust half collector. I bought this coin to put in my 7070, and I thought it would be interesting to try to attribute it. Sorry if I wasted your time .

numisma

Dawg144, nobody thinks you are stupid, lol. On the contrary, it is always appreciated when someone shows interest in numismatic areas that are often ignored. You are commended for sharing your coin with us and expressing an interest in early American coinage. Please stick around and keep posting. What else do you have in your 7070 that you would like to share??

PS - you are one of the few that has elicited a post from HalfCollector, who happens to be THE authority on Reeded Edge halves. So.....good job!