1879 Proof Morgan--Real or Altered

MMagidson

Ok, guys so I've contacted the seller about the few negatives he's had where turned out the coins were altered. Claims they were cheap coins specifically identified as bought from xyz, and not from the collection. He's now offered to take Paypal and allow returns if the coin doesn't grade as a proof.

Would you go through with it? Here's the coin again.

commoncents05

This seller has been discussed in depth here. It looks darn nice and pretty tempting.

-Paul

sweetwilliet

There was a thread on this particular coin a few days ago, can anyone remember it to link?

MMagidson

The discussion is less than resolved though. Other than one purchaser who tried to take-back his feedback, does anyone have any other knowledge? Has anyone actually bought a coin from him?

Thanks,

CalGold

If it grades PR63 you can't return it right? Same if it goes PR62.

The problem is that you bid PR65 money.

CG

sinin1

I wouldn't have bid $6K on a raw coin

unless I had so much money $6K is what I would be willing to pay to see a monkey piss on a rope

JSsson

Looks okay to me although I wouldn't bid that much on a raw proof coin either.

Manorcourtman

<< <i>This seller has been discussed in depth here. It looks darn nice and pretty tempting.

-Paul >>



What seller are you talking about??????

coindeuce

<< <i>Ok, guys so I've contacted the seller about the few negatives he's had where turned out the coins were altered. Claims they were cheap coins specifically identified as bought from xyz, and not from the collection. He's now offered to take Paypal and allow returns if the coin doesn't grade as a proof.

Would you go through with it? Here's the coin again. >>



Those terms as described would be unacceptable to me. You should ask for a specific parameter of terms based on the price you bid the coin to, with regard to a third party grading service. And if the seller is legitimately confident in his merchandise, he will undoubtedly offer those terms in writing(as in a letterhead generated invoice). Otherwise, just graciously pass on the basis of buyer's remorse, and be willing to take your lumps if it is in the form of negative feedback.

UtahCoin

Link to auction

roadrunner

I'd probably offer to eat the rope that the monkey pissed on if that grades 65. In any case it sold for PF66 money. I don't buy the grandpa act, the 100% FB, nor the FDC description. Any seller who even once was altering or playing with the coins would never get my business again, esp for a $6K raw coin.

More than likely this will grade PF63 or 64. What seller in his right mind will put up a legit raw 65 or better proof on ebay and let it go without reserve. The schills will ensure a tidy price. The last PF66 Morgan I owned was part of a proof set, and I valued the coin at around $6000.

roadrunner

CarlWohlforth

I'm not a buyer of this lot. Why gamble?

If I could examine the coin in person I would be able to form an opinion. It isn't fair to the seller to bid as speculation it will grade gem, rush it to PCGS and return it when it fails to meet expecations...

If the coin were gem proof it should be certified to realize maximum value. I always assume sellers want to maximize value...

I just don't get it. I'm not understanding the thinking here. What is the upside? I can see the downside, I just can't see the upside...

The way the question and some responses are phrased suggests you (MMagidson) bought the coin. Now you are having 2'nd thoughts? Sigh, I guess my reply isn't adding value. I guess I should just delete this and move on. But I won't. I do hope you are able to return the coin. The original post says he will allow a return if it isn't a proof? What if it is a low grade proof? What if it is a cleaned, retoned proof? Can you return it then? I would only go through with the deal if there were a no questions ask return policy where I can return the coin for any reason. If that was agreed to I would get several opinions from experts the very day the coin arrived and would not rely on my years of experience...

TomB

If you purchased this coin at this price then you should take a step back and evaluate again how you buy coins. The seller only guarantees that the coin is a proof; there is no guarantee that the coin will grade at a certain level or that the coin will even certify as problem-free. This piece cost $6,665 with shipping, which is absolutely insane.

coinpictures

Yeah we've discussed this seller at length before.... RUN AWAY!!!

A zillion red flags in that auction.

Wolf359

Most proof morgans are graded PR63. However, the ones still raw are extremely suspect because if they were that good, they'd be in a slab, so assume they are WORSE than PR63 when placing a bid.

He's now offered to take Paypal and allow returns if the coin doesn't grade as a proof.

No dispute it's a proof. But since you got no grade guarantee, you are stuck.

CarlWohlforth

<<No dispute it's a proof. But since you got no grade guarantee, you are stuck>>

You are not stuck unless you have already paid. If you sent money then you are probably stuck. Personally I'd rather risk getting kicked off eBay for non-payment than betting that coin is PR 66.

Tyler1924S

It's been a couple weeks and I still don't know what to make of mtc3015. He has repeat buyers spending large amounts of money and leaving good feedback. However, there are some very strange neutrals (as well as negative follow-ups to positives). Then there's the FDC thing that "grandfather" used to write on the "inventory". Grandfather and the whole inheritance thing is almost always a cheap ebay come-on. We know some of the coins have been messed with while others (in fact, most) look completely natural. Keeps coming back to one thing... WHY ARE THEY NOT IN SLABS FROM A TOP TIER TPG!!!? If even half of these coins could make it into into a TPG's holder, MTC is completely cheating himself by not having this done. Selling that 1797 Draped Bust Dollar raw (and only getting $3,300 for it) is pure lunacy. I agree with everyone else here, "RUN AWAY!!!", ETC.

njcoincrank

I said it on another thread and I'll repeat it here. I think this coin is legit.

While the "grandfather's estate" is indeed an old trick here, I see no reason to dispute this one. Virtually all of the coins offered by this seller, and represented as being from this estate, have one thing in common. They all are housed in older kraft style 2x2 envelopes. With handwriting from a period of 30-50 years ago. And description style that hasn't been used in decades. It is possible that the seller is a casual collector, or maybe someone who thinks they know more than they do. They could very well be just plain ignorant. One thing that can't be disputed is this coin. It is a proof. With ORIGINAL toning. Whether or not there are hairlines we can't tell. But don't kid yourself thinking that all the GEM proof type coins have found their way to a TPG. "Grandfather" may have been the blind hog who got lucky and found a truffel.

We may never know the outcome of this coin. But I will say that to condem this coin using only eBay feedback, and ignoring obvious clues, is crazy. I am sure there are some of you here that can't wait for me to be proven wrong. And maybe I will. But the evidence is in my favor as much as it is in your's.

njcoincrank

njcoincrank

I don't want anyone the mis-understand what I am trying to say. First off I believe it is CRAZY for anyone to bid $6,000 sight unseen with no return. Second, there are many people who don't know how, or won't spend the money, to get a coin certified by a major TPG. Look have successful the alphabet services were. 300 million people here in America my friends.

But I stand by my opinion. I think "Grandpa's" collection was real. And that there is a good chance this coin may be GEM.

njcoincrank

CarlWohlforth

<<I don't want anyone the mis-understand what I am trying to say. First off I believe it is CRAZY for anyone to bid $6,000 sight unseen with no return.>>

Thanks for the clarification. After your earliert post I was wondering why you didn't bid!

Tyler1924S

I tend to agree with what njcoincrank has said. I've been very careful not to call mtc3015 a scammer or fraud. One of the most troubling things about any of this (aside from $6,000 sight unseen) might just be some of the OTHER purchases made by the winner of the auction in question. One example are these two common date Peace Dollars for $192.50;

njcoincrank

What ever happened to this coin?

Did you buy it with some sort of return agreement?

njcoincrank

JJM

dude..........