Some interesting stats on 84 VAM crossovers to PCGS

Yale68

Just tabulated some crossover statistics on Morgan VAMs that are currently in my "Major VAMs" PCGS registry set. It turns out that 84 coins in this set were acquired in other TPG holders and crossed to PCGS, some going up, some going down, and some staying the same. An earlier thread today regarding ANACS grading aroused my curiosoty, so I decided to take a look at my own experience. Here are the results for each TPG:

1. ANACS - - out of 47 total coins,
24 crossed at the same grade
15 coins crossed at a lower grade
8 coins crossed at a higher grade

2. NGC - - out of 31 total coins,
20 crossed at the same grade
9 crossed at a lower grade
2 crossed at a higher grade

3. ICG - - out of 6 total coins,
4 crossed at the same grade
1 crossed at a lower grade
1 crossed at a higher grade.

I actually like the above ANACS results better than the NGC results. No stats on coins that DNC were available, but I think ANACS does worse than NGC in that regard.

Coxe

Interesting results. All of the higher/lower grades either 1 point difference or, in the case of some downgrades, some MS grade to AU here and there?

Yale68

Almost all changes were a one grade change. None went from MS to AU. Some downgrades were no grade change, but loss of PL or DMPL to PL. Two notable exceptions were a 79-O VAM 4 that went from 61 to 63, and a 1901 VAM 5 that went from 58 to 53.

Coxe

The VAM-4 upgrade is a damned good one and makes you forget about the VAM-5 downgrade. Losing PL and DMPL down to PL is tough though, especially depending on the VAM. I think the only DMPL I attempted to cross was a '78 VAM-23 and it went ok.

Wolf359

Great stats. I believe your ANACS results are superior to mine. I've done about 30 or so, and only had
one upgrade, which was the monster donkey tail going from MS60 to MS61. Assuming they crossed,
1/2 stayed the same and about 1/2 went down a point.

I think we've discussed in the past that 1 in 4 from ANACS will DNC (at any grade) to PCGS. Of course that's the old white holders.

DennisH

Joe:

Your results are slightly better than mine, other than the upgraded area where yours are MUCH better. I've had more ANACS coins go down two grades than you appear to have suffered. Most of mine were circ. coins, BTW.

BIGJAYVEE

That's very interesting,Joe.As crossovers that's really pretty good.What's the concensus of crossovers versus crack-outs?I hear pro's and cons for both.

Yale68

Some of my "crossovers" were actually "crackouts" submitted raw. In fact, all coins that I viewed as PQ for the grade were cracked out. I think that all 11 of the upgrades were achieved this way. My own personal feeling is that if they were submitted in the holders, they would not have upgraded.

DennisH

Joe:

All of my crossover upgrades have been on crackouts as well.

And my same-grade ANACS crossover rate is maybe 50% higher on crackouts than it is on in-holder submissions.

Wolf359

Almost all of mine were crack outs. The single upgrade went in the Holder.
I tallied the coins. About what I remembered:

ANACS
1 Upgrade
9 fell a point
1 fell 2 points
7 crossed at grade
2 DNC any grade - cleaned

NGC
1 upgrade that I still can't agree with (grotesque toning, but I guess they liked it)
3 crossed at grade
2 fell a point
3 DNC any grade

PCI Green
1 crossed at MS64
1 crossed from MS61 to MS63
1 DNC at MS65

Yale68

Jack - -

Its obvious why you did not crack out the donkey tail.

When I have a valuable coin (i.e. over $500), I usually cannot bring myself to crack it out, always fearing the dreaded bodybag. So, instead I submit it as a crossover (usually with instructions to "cross at any grade"). Some of these are holdered at a lower grade than I expected. In almost all cases, these come back at the proper, or expected, grade when resubmitted under the regrade service. This is because coins submited for regrades are cracked out and given to the graders raw. The graders do not know that they are looking at regrades, and the coins get a "fair shot" (unlike coins in ANACS holders - - and whatever you do, don't bother submitting coins in SEGS holders). Yes, this is often wasted money on extra grading fees, but it does not feel like wasted money when you end up with that "dream" grade.

RobJoyce1921dVAMguy

Interesting thread. I just got grades tonight. Couldn't bring myself to crack these coins (experience also tells me that cracks do better than regrades) as some woud be major drops with one point down.

<!--StartFragment -->6 of 9 crossed at my specified grade

1921 $1 Morgan Pitted Rev VAM-3E DNC was NGC 65 specified 65 min
1923 $1 VAM-1A MS65 was NGC 65 specified 65 min
1887-S $1 S/S VAM-2 MS63PL was NGC 63PL specified 63PL min
1888-O $1 VAM-9 MS64DM was NGC 64DMPL specified 64dm min
1899-O $1 VAM-31 DNC was ANACS 61 specified 61 min
1878 7TF $1 Reverse of 1879 VAM-220 MS61 was NGC 61 specified 61 min
1921 $1 Pitted Reverse VAM-3B DNC was NGC 65 specified 65 min
1880 $1 VAM-1A AU50 was ANACS 50 specified 45 min
1880-O $1 80/79 VAM-4 MS61 was NGC 62 specified 61 min

I really thought one of the two pitted reverses would make it. One I expected would only go as a 64 as it lack the PCGS eye appeal for a 65, but I really thought the other would go.

Rob

Wolf359

6 out of 9 is an outstanding result. Woo Hoo!

Yale68

Rob - - great results!
I especially like the 1878 Vam 220, which is tied for finest known at MS61. Also like the 87-S in 63PL, since I am partial to PL's. Its too bad that your mintstate micro O didn't make it.