This could be the first proven opportunity for litigious types to file a restraint of trade lawsuit against eBay. I'm not sure it would fly given that eBay is a private venue, but I've seen junkier lawsuits prevail.
<< <i>I talked to a close friend of the Beardsley family at the Fort Worth show today. He said that PCI had lost 90% of their income after the ebay ban. >>
Too bad PCI doesn't have the funds to file a lawsuit against "flea-bay" - if I had a TPG and "flea-bay" did what they did, i'd be suing them.
DORAN COINS - On Facebook, Instagram, X (formerly Twitter), & www.dorancoins.net - UPCOMING SHOWS (tentative dates)- 10/8/2023 - Fairfield, IL, 11/5/2023 - Urbana, IL., 12/3/2023 - Mattoon, IL.
I would be interested in hearing what this sells for.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
For someone with the money and inclination, there's a GREAT restraint of trade/defamation/tortious interference suit to be brought against eBay for providing preferential treatment to some grading services relative to others.
Heck, I'll put up 5k to buy PCI and join the fight (if nothing else, for the principal and the entertainment value).
By order of the Board of Directors, all assets of PCI, Inc., tangible and intangible, are to be sold to the highest bidder at "Absolute Public Auction", all for one bid!!!
Name, Registered Service Mark, Web Site, Toll Free Number, Safes and Office Equipment.
Registered Service Mark, 1-800 number, Customer List, Approximately 13,000 - 14,000 Names
2 Kaso Safes Dial & Key Model TL30 260 Safety Class 687, Manufactured Date 10/5/89 & 9/14/89, Manufacured #0000098 & 0000110
Kaso Dial & Key Safe Model TL30 250, Safety Class UL689, Manufactured Date 5/4/89, Manufacured #0000030
Victor Fire Master Super LX 3 Drawer File Cabinet, Dukane Sonic Sealer, Model 43A255, Serial #53375
Sonics 1080D Series Sonic Sealers
OFFICE EQUIPMENT: 5 Dell Dimension 3000 Computers, Lateral 5-drawer & 2-drawer File Cabinets, 4-drawer File Cabinets, Metal Utility Cabinet, Computer Table, 2-drawer File Cabinet, Brother MFC-8840D Laser Multi Function Machine, Desks, Glass Front Wooden Bookshelves, HP LaserJet 1320, American Optical Stereo Star Zoom 0.7X to 2X, Tasco K1020 Microscope, 1 Microscope (No Name), Misc. Folding Tables, Ohaus Cent-O-Gram Balance 311g Capacity, Approx. 50 Boxes of Inserts, Refrigerator, Husky 135PSI Portable Air Compressor, Central Pneumatic Air Compressor, Kobalt 1.3hp Portable Air Compressor, Campbell Hausfield 2hp Air Compressor, Conference Table, Approx. 9 Box of Slabs 360 per box.
Here is the name and phone number of the attorney handling it: Kyle Weims, 423-624-1000
What about their lease/mailing address/P.O. Box???
<< <i>For someone with the money and inclination, there's a GREAT restraint of trade/defamation/tortious interference suit to be brought against eBay for providing preferential treatment to some grading services relative to others.
Heck, I'll put up 5k to buy PCI and join the fight (if nothing else, for the principal and the entertainment value).
By order of the Board of Directors, all assets of PCI, Inc., tangible and intangible, are to be sold to the highest bidder at "Absolute Public Auction", all for one bid!!!
Name, Registered Service Mark, Web Site, Toll Free Number, Safes and Office Equipment.
Registered Service Mark, 1-800 number, Customer List, Approximately 13,000 - 14,000 Names
2 Kaso Safes Dial & Key Model TL30 260 Safety Class 687, Manufactured Date 10/5/89 & 9/14/89, Manufacured #0000098 & 0000110
Kaso Dial & Key Safe Model TL30 250, Safety Class UL689, Manufactured Date 5/4/89, Manufacured #0000030
Victor Fire Master Super LX 3 Drawer File Cabinet, Dukane Sonic Sealer, Model 43A255, Serial #53375
Sonics 1080D Series Sonic Sealers
OFFICE EQUIPMENT: 5 Dell Dimension 3000 Computers, Lateral 5-drawer & 2-drawer File Cabinets, 4-drawer File Cabinets, Metal Utility Cabinet, Computer Table, 2-drawer File Cabinet, Brother MFC-8840D Laser Multi Function Machine, Desks, Glass Front Wooden Bookshelves, HP LaserJet 1320, American Optical Stereo Star Zoom 0.7X to 2X, Tasco K1020 Microscope, 1 Microscope (No Name), Misc. Folding Tables, Ohaus Cent-O-Gram Balance 311g Capacity, Approx. 50 Boxes of Inserts, Refrigerator, Husky 135PSI Portable Air Compressor, Central Pneumatic Air Compressor, Kobalt 1.3hp Portable Air Compressor, Campbell Hausfield 2hp Air Compressor, Conference Table, Approx. 9 Box of Slabs 360 per box.
Here is the name and phone number of the attorney handling it: Kyle Weims, 423-624-1000
What about their lease/mailing address/P.O. Box??? >>
DORAN COINS - On Facebook, Instagram, X (formerly Twitter), & www.dorancoins.net - UPCOMING SHOWS (tentative dates)- 10/8/2023 - Fairfield, IL, 11/5/2023 - Urbana, IL., 12/3/2023 - Mattoon, IL.
Actually, setting aside any opinion as to the company's reputation for a moment, although this is an asset sale, the value (if any) - or at least the lion's share of it - will be determined by the going concern value.
The compnay just told me that the attorney will provide financials to buyers upon request. They also said that they see no reason why their P.O. Box and current office location (approx rent $1,800/mo. for the office & a lease that can be transferred) as well as their current employees will not be part of the deal.
My guess (not knowing the value of the safes and slabbing equiptment) is that the tangible assets would probably be worth in the 5-10k range but that the company will sell for 1-2 times EBITDA.
A bargain if you can get the right terms and then succeed at increasing it's credibility. Even if the credibility level could be hiked up to that of ANACS, the next sale would probably get 3-4 times EBITDA - which would presumably be a multiple of a (say) a 2 times higher EBITDA amount by then??? 300-800% return for the timeframe???
PCGS should consider purchasing it. Then those problem coins could get slabbed as genuine. have the same look and feel of their GRADED counterparts, but simply be : P.C.I. Problem Coins Incorporated, a division of PCGS.
<< <i>Actually, setting aside any opinion as to the company's reputation for a moment, although this is an asset sale, the value (if any) - or at least the lion's share of it - will be determined by the going concern value.
The compnay just told me that the attorney will provide financials to buyers upon request. They also said that they see no reason why their P.O. Box and current office location (approx rent $1,800/mo. for the office & a lease that can be transferred) as well as their current employees will not be part of the deal.
My guess (not knowing the value of the safes and slabbing equiptment) is that the tangible assets would probably be worth in the 5-10k range but that the company will sell for 1-2 times EBITDA.
A bargain if you can get the right terms and then succeed at increasing it's credibility. Even if the credibility level could be hiked up to that of ANACS, the next sale would probably get 3-4 times EBITDA - which would presumably be a multiple of a (say) a 2 times higher EBITDA amount by then??? 300-800% return for the timeframe??? >>
From what you say and from what I got from them it sounds like PCI's sale is being billed as a up and running company. And not a liquidation sale.
Which ever one of the forum members who buys it can post EACH coin here and we can take 4 pages of forum space to debate the grade, come up with the average grade on 4 pages and then the mail clerk can stick on the label and mail it out. Outsourcing at its best!
WS
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
<< <i>Actually, setting aside any opinion as to the company's reputation for a moment, although this is an asset sale, the value (if any) - or at least the lion's share of it - will be determined by the going concern value.
The compnay just told me that the attorney will provide financials to buyers upon request. They also said that they see no reason why their P.O. Box and current office location (approx rent $1,800/mo. for the office & a lease that can be transferred) as well as their current employees will not be part of the deal.
My guess (not knowing the value of the safes and slabbing equiptment) is that the tangible assets would probably be worth in the 5-10k range but that the company will sell for 1-2 times EBITDA.
A bargain if you can get the right terms and then succeed at increasing it's credibility. Even if the credibility level could be hiked up to that of ANACS, the next sale would probably get 3-4 times EBITDA - which would presumably be a multiple of a (say) a 2 times higher EBITDA amount by then??? 300-800% return for the timeframe??? >>
I'd like to take a look at the financials, but I doubt they will ever be publicly available. Did they say anything about assumption of any debt?
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
"I'd like to take a look at the financials, but I doubt they will ever be publicly available. Did they say anything about assumption of any debt?"
1. Company said attorney would provide financials. We'll see. He hasn't gotten back to me yet. 2. Asset Sale = NO assumption of debt OR of any potential OR contingent liabilities (for anything prior to the date of the sale).
Edited to add: Attorney just replied:
"Our principal, Brian Beardsley, is deceased. This is simply an asset sale and we are not providing financials, employees, etc."
Hold on just a second. Did anyone notice something really, really big missing from the list of items being sold? How about the injection molds for the upper and lower housings, as well as for all of the various inserts? My guess is that they don't own the tools and they are buying the slab components from a tooling source. Probably $3 per three piece slab assembly, or something close to that.
Regarding the value of the items that are listed, I would say that it is about $20,000 or so. Those safes are worth at least $5,000 each and the high bidder will probably be a local safe dealer as opposed to a slabbing entrepreneur. The "blue sky" (800 number, name, etc.) is just a freebie that they have thrown in to puff up the auction.
I think that they would realize a higher dollar amount if they auctioned everything in individual lots. If someone were to start a new grading company, they would be better off starting from scratch. The cost would be less and they wouldn't have to fight with issues relating to reputation and successor liability.
But again, I am surprised that issue of tooling wasn't addressed. Same thing with other intellectual property, specifically the patent on the slab design. The way this deal is being presented would mean that the high bidder would have to come up with a new slab design and build new tools, or purchase the tools from whomever owns them. Maybe the tools are in need of repair? Injection molds do wear out you know.
There is an article in the January 7th 2008 issue of Coin World about the PCI auction. It states there is a 25% partner who is estranged from the widow of the former owner who had no idea the auction was to take place. It is not clear if the auction can proceed without his permission.
One of the problems with buying all the assets, is that you may become responsible for their liabilities. Who knows what skeletons are in their closets? If you buy 75% of the assets of a business, you become liable for any taxes owed by the business. It's better to start from scratch if you have an interest in doing this, unless you can have the time necessary to conduct due diligence.
"One of the problems with buying all the assets, is that you may become responsible for their liabilities. Who knows what skeletons are in their closets? If you buy 75% of the assets of a business, you become liable for any taxes owed by the business."
This is unequivocally wrong. You do not become liable for ANY liabilities - especially past taxes.
The only thing you might become liable for would be IF there were some type of guarantee that PCI currently gives (to submitters/holders of their plastic) that you failed to disavow (for submissions prior to some date, e.g.).
The weird thing is that all people on the phone are really bizarre. The auction guy says that the company is being sold as a going concern and that the attorney will be happy to forward financials.
The employess say the same thing as well as the fact that the new owner will be able to assume the lease AND that ALL current employees plan on staying and refer you to the autioneer and/or the attorney (while refusing to offer financials).
Sandy (Brian's widow) won't return phone calls.
The attorney said "this is an asset sale dummy" - explicitly saying that there will NOT be financials forthcoming.
IF they REALLY wanted to sell this as a going concern AND maximize value, this is a classic case of what NOT to do when selling a business!!!
Comments
Also included in the sale:
Customer List, Approximately 13,000 - 14,000 Names
I wonder if this includes finacial data, like credit card info?
<< <i>Also included in the sale:
Customer List, Approximately 13,000 - 14,000 Names
I wonder if this includes finacial data, like credit card info? >>
i wonder if, you had that list, how many coin dr's would appear on it?
K S
<< <i>I talked to a close friend of the Beardsley family at the Fort Worth show today. He said that PCI had lost 90% of their income after the ebay ban. >>
Too bad PCI doesn't have the funds to file a lawsuit against "flea-bay" - if I had a TPG and "flea-bay" did what they did, i'd be suing them.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Heck, I'll put up 5k to buy PCI and join the fight (if nothing else, for the principal and the entertainment value).
BTW, here is a LINK to the auction info.
Here is what's being sold:
By order of the Board of Directors, all assets of PCI, Inc., tangible and intangible, are to be sold to the highest bidder at "Absolute Public Auction", all for one bid!!!
Name, Registered Service Mark, Web Site, Toll Free Number, Safes and Office Equipment.
Registered Service Mark, 1-800 number, Customer List, Approximately 13,000 - 14,000 Names
2 Kaso Safes Dial & Key Model TL30 260 Safety Class 687, Manufactured Date 10/5/89 & 9/14/89, Manufacured #0000098 & 0000110
Kaso Dial & Key Safe Model TL30 250, Safety Class UL689, Manufactured Date 5/4/89, Manufacured #0000030
Victor Fire Master Super LX 3 Drawer File Cabinet, Dukane Sonic Sealer, Model 43A255, Serial #53375
Sonics 1080D Series Sonic Sealers
OFFICE EQUIPMENT: 5 Dell Dimension 3000 Computers, Lateral 5-drawer & 2-drawer File Cabinets, 4-drawer File Cabinets, Metal Utility Cabinet, Computer Table, 2-drawer File Cabinet, Brother MFC-8840D Laser Multi Function Machine, Desks, Glass Front Wooden Bookshelves, HP LaserJet 1320, American Optical Stereo Star Zoom 0.7X to 2X, Tasco K1020 Microscope, 1 Microscope (No Name), Misc. Folding Tables, Ohaus Cent-O-Gram Balance 311g Capacity, Approx. 50 Boxes of Inserts, Refrigerator, Husky 135PSI Portable Air Compressor, Central Pneumatic Air Compressor, Kobalt 1.3hp Portable Air Compressor, Campbell Hausfield 2hp Air Compressor, Conference Table, Approx. 9 Box of Slabs 360 per box.
Here is the name and phone number of the attorney handling it: Kyle Weims, 423-624-1000
What about their lease/mailing address/P.O. Box???
<< <i>For someone with the money and inclination, there's a GREAT restraint of trade/defamation/tortious interference suit to be brought against eBay for providing preferential treatment to some grading services relative to others.
Heck, I'll put up 5k to buy PCI and join the fight (if nothing else, for the principal and the entertainment value).
BTW, here is a LINK to the auction info.
Here is what's being sold:
By order of the Board of Directors, all assets of PCI, Inc., tangible and intangible, are to be sold to the highest bidder at "Absolute Public Auction", all for one bid!!!
Name, Registered Service Mark, Web Site, Toll Free Number, Safes and Office Equipment.
Registered Service Mark, 1-800 number, Customer List, Approximately 13,000 - 14,000 Names
2 Kaso Safes Dial & Key Model TL30 260 Safety Class 687, Manufactured Date 10/5/89 & 9/14/89, Manufacured #0000098 & 0000110
Kaso Dial & Key Safe Model TL30 250, Safety Class UL689, Manufactured Date 5/4/89, Manufacured #0000030
Victor Fire Master Super LX 3 Drawer File Cabinet, Dukane Sonic Sealer, Model 43A255, Serial #53375
Sonics 1080D Series Sonic Sealers
OFFICE EQUIPMENT: 5 Dell Dimension 3000 Computers, Lateral 5-drawer & 2-drawer File Cabinets, 4-drawer File Cabinets, Metal Utility Cabinet, Computer Table, 2-drawer File Cabinet, Brother MFC-8840D Laser Multi Function Machine, Desks, Glass Front Wooden Bookshelves, HP LaserJet 1320, American Optical Stereo Star Zoom 0.7X to 2X, Tasco K1020 Microscope, 1 Microscope (No Name), Misc. Folding Tables, Ohaus Cent-O-Gram Balance 311g Capacity, Approx. 50 Boxes of Inserts, Refrigerator, Husky 135PSI Portable Air Compressor, Central Pneumatic Air Compressor, Kobalt 1.3hp Portable Air Compressor, Campbell Hausfield 2hp Air Compressor, Conference Table, Approx. 9 Box of Slabs 360 per box.
Here is the name and phone number of the attorney handling it: Kyle Weims, 423-624-1000
What about their lease/mailing address/P.O. Box??? >>
<< <i>but the largest financial problem and the final blow was eBay negating them as a professional grader. >>
They negated themselves as a professional grader long before the eBay policy changes.
<< <i>Too bad PCI doesn't have the funds to file a lawsuit against "flea-bay" - if I had a TPG and "flea-bay" did what they did, i'd be suing them. >>
If such a suit actually had any merit, why has an action not been brought against Heritage and Teletrade?
Russ, NCNE
I'll start - $7500.00
Any other guesses?
The compnay just told me that the attorney will provide financials to buyers upon request. They also said that they see no reason why their P.O. Box and current office location (approx rent $1,800/mo. for the office & a lease that can be transferred) as well as their current employees will not be part of the deal.
My guess (not knowing the value of the safes and slabbing equiptment) is that the tangible assets would probably be worth in the 5-10k range but that the company will sell for 1-2 times EBITDA.
A bargain if you can get the right terms and then succeed at increasing it's credibility. Even if the credibility level could be hiked up to that of ANACS, the next sale would probably get 3-4 times EBITDA - which would presumably be a multiple of a (say) a 2 times higher EBITDA amount by then??? 300-800% return for the timeframe???
<< <i>Actually, setting aside any opinion as to the company's reputation for a moment, although this is an asset sale, the value (if any) - or at least the lion's share of it - will be determined by the going concern value.
The compnay just told me that the attorney will provide financials to buyers upon request. They also said that they see no reason why their P.O. Box and current office location (approx rent $1,800/mo. for the office & a lease that can be transferred) as well as their current employees will not be part of the deal.
My guess (not knowing the value of the safes and slabbing equiptment) is that the tangible assets would probably be worth in the 5-10k range but that the company will sell for 1-2 times EBITDA.
A bargain if you can get the right terms and then succeed at increasing it's credibility. Even if the credibility level could be hiked up to that of ANACS, the next sale would probably get 3-4 times EBITDA - which would presumably be a multiple of a (say) a 2 times higher EBITDA amount by then??? 300-800% return for the timeframe??? >>
From what you say and from what I got from them it sounds like PCI's sale is being billed as a up and running company. And not a liquidation sale.
Jerry
WS
That's what they're saying but haven't got any official confirmation from their attorney (Kyle Weems - not Weims) yet.
<< <i>Actually, setting aside any opinion as to the company's reputation for a moment, although this is an asset sale, the value (if any) - or at least the lion's share of it - will be determined by the going concern value.
The compnay just told me that the attorney will provide financials to buyers upon request. They also said that they see no reason why their P.O. Box and current office location (approx rent $1,800/mo. for the office & a lease that can be transferred) as well as their current employees will not be part of the deal.
My guess (not knowing the value of the safes and slabbing equiptment) is that the tangible assets would probably be worth in the 5-10k range but that the company will sell for 1-2 times EBITDA.
A bargain if you can get the right terms and then succeed at increasing it's credibility. Even if the credibility level could be hiked up to that of ANACS, the next sale would probably get 3-4 times EBITDA - which would presumably be a multiple of a (say) a 2 times higher EBITDA amount by then??? 300-800% return for the timeframe??? >>
I'd like to take a look at the financials, but I doubt they will ever be publicly available. Did they say anything about assumption of any debt?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
1. Company said attorney would provide financials. We'll see. He hasn't gotten back to me yet.
2. Asset Sale = NO assumption of debt OR of any potential OR contingent liabilities (for anything prior to the date of the sale).
Edited to add: Attorney just replied:
"Our principal, Brian Beardsley, is deceased. This is simply an asset sale and we are not providing financials, employees, etc."
Hold on just a second. Did anyone notice something really, really big missing from the list of items being sold? How about the injection molds for the upper and lower housings, as well as for all of the various inserts? My guess is that they don't own the tools and they are buying the slab components from a tooling source. Probably $3 per three piece slab assembly, or something close to that.
Regarding the value of the items that are listed, I would say that it is about $20,000 or so. Those safes are worth at least $5,000 each and the high bidder will probably be a local safe dealer as opposed to a slabbing entrepreneur. The "blue sky" (800 number, name, etc.) is just a freebie that they have thrown in to puff up the auction.
I think that they would realize a higher dollar amount if they auctioned everything in individual lots. If someone were to start a new grading company, they would be better off starting from scratch. The cost would be less and they wouldn't have to fight with issues relating to reputation and successor liability.
But again, I am surprised that issue of tooling wasn't addressed. Same thing with other intellectual property, specifically the patent on the slab design. The way this deal is being presented would mean that the high bidder would have to come up with a new slab design and build new tools, or purchase the tools from whomever owns them. Maybe the tools are in need of repair? Injection molds do wear out you know.
<< <i>"Our principal, Brian Beardsley, is deceased. This is simply an asset sale and we are not providing financials, employees, etc." >>
If that's the case, then this is definitely not a sale of an ongoing concern. Anybody who has coins in for grading right now should be very worried.
Russ, NCNE
Chance favors the prepared mind.
<< <i>
<< <i>"Our principal, Brian Beardsley, is deceased. This is simply an asset sale and we are not providing financials, employees, etc." >>
If that's the case, then this is definitely not a sale of an ongoing concern. Anybody who has coins in for grading right now should be very worried.
Russ, NCNE >>
Well, if they are liquidating then maybe they'll start a 'Last Batch Graded' pedigree.
If you buy 75% of the assets of a business, you become liable for any taxes owed by the business.
It's better to start from scratch if you have an interest in doing this, unless you can have the time necessary to conduct due diligence.
Ray
This is unequivocally wrong. You do not become liable for ANY liabilities - especially past taxes.
The only thing you might become liable for would be IF there were some type of guarantee that PCI currently gives (to submitters/holders of their plastic) that you failed to disavow (for submissions prior to some date, e.g.).
The weird thing is that all people on the phone are really bizarre. The auction guy says that the company is being sold as a going concern and that the attorney will be happy to forward financials.
The employess say the same thing as well as the fact that the new owner will be able to assume the lease AND that ALL current employees plan on staying and refer you to the autioneer and/or the attorney (while refusing to offer financials).
Sandy (Brian's widow) won't return phone calls.
The attorney said "this is an asset sale dummy" - explicitly saying that there will NOT be financials forthcoming.
IF they REALLY wanted to sell this as a going concern AND maximize value, this is a classic case of what NOT to do when selling a business!!!
Something seriously rotten going on here.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
WS