Is Maddux now the premier hurler of this generation?

WinPitcher

Greg maddux may not have the strikeouts that Clemens has, but in light of recent developments it may be that maddux may now be it.

Steve

perkdog

Not sure who made the entire list but if these guys are not on it they are all my choices

Maddux
R.Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Tom Glavine
Schilling

bigfische

id put smoltz here too. but maddux is the clear number one.

Barndog

so maybe Duquette was right when he thought Roger was washed up

perkdog

<< <i>id put smoltz here too. but maddux is the clear number one. >>



definately deserves mention, forgot about him...

BobaFett72

I'd take Smoltzie too clutch performer, super starter, then a lights out closer, then a starter again!

RonBurgundy

Absolutely. Maddux has never gotten the credit he deserves. Hope he pitches a couple more years and puts up about 375 wins, the guy just loves the game and loves to pitch.



Ron

JackWESQ

Even before the Mitchell Report, I always considered Maddux the premier pitcher of this generation. One game for all the marbles, I'd take Maddux in his prime over anyone else. No glamour, but unquestioned deadly effectiveness.

/s/ JackWESQ

grote15

For a span of about 5 years, Maddux was the the best pitcher in the majors, hands down, as dominant as Koufax was, almost. Even more impressive to me is that he's not blessed with that 95 mph fastball. He's a true pitcher in every sense. Watching him when he's on his game, is like watching a master at work.

He may reach 400 wins before he's done, too!

MantleMarisFordBerra

Prior to finding out he was a cheater I thought Clemens was the greatest living pitcher. Now, forget about it. I now think Maddux is the best of this era.

thegemmintman

<< <i>Prior to finding out he was a cheater I thought Clemens was the greatest living pitcher. Now, forget about it. I now think Maddux is the best of this era. >>





I thought Clemens was arguably the best of all time. Now forget the whole thing. He's Bonds in pitcher form.

bxb

I might have chosen Maddux even before the latest steroid scandal.

Aside from his pitching feats, hasn't he won something like 15 Gold Gloves?

I have also read from several sources that he is the smartest player in the game.

SDSportsFan

Thing is, how many of Maddux's wins came as a result of saves from Rocker or home runs/game winning hits by Justice. Both of them were named in Mitchell's report. If they weren't on 'roids, maybe things work out differently and Maddux doesn't get the win. What does Maddux's record look like then.

That's the problem with all this talk about removing the records and stats of the 'roid users. What other ramifications will there be, considering that it's a team game, and one player's actions affect the stats and records of other players on their team (not to mention the other team). If Justice had a game-winning hit off a particular pitcher, do we go back and credit that pitcher with another win, and take away the loss?


Steve

Barndog

<< <i>Thing is, how many of Maddux's wins came as a result of saves from Rocker or home runs/game winning hits by Justice. Both of them were named in Mitchell's report. If they weren't on 'roids, maybe things work out differently and Maddux doesn't get the win. What does Maddux's record look like then.

That's the problem with all this talk about removing the records and stats of the 'roid users. What other ramifications will there be, considering that it's a team game, and one player's actions affect the stats and records of other players on their team (not to mention the other team). If Justice had a game-winning hit off a particular pitcher, do we go back and credit that pitcher with another win, and take away the loss?


Steve >>



how many walkoff hits did Justice have in a game that Maddux was the pitcher of record? I don't have any stats, but I'm guessing the number of additional wins from this factor is zero or darn near close to zero.

grote15

Are you kidding me? Maddux' ERA was often around or even below 2.00. He didn't need no damn help from nobody!

WinPitcher

Steve I understand what you were trying to convey but I think it is a stretch.


Steve D

maxdome

Yeah, I agree with grote15 Maddux era in his prime was incredible.

MPeter

Maddux and Justice only played together with the Braves for four seasons. In those seasons, Maddux had a combined record of 70-29 with 706 strike outs and 33 complete games. His ERA's were 2.36, 1.56, 1.63 and 2.72. He also won the Cy Young in three out of those four seasons!!!

Whatever Justice was doing, didn't even matter. Rocker also played with Maddux for four seasons. He had 83 saves over that span, but Maddux had a ton of complete games and was winning games by 4 or more runs. I don't even think there were too many save situations.

It would be great to see Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz get elected to the Hall of Fame in the same year!

DeutscherGeist

Maddux
R.Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Tom Glavine
John Smoltz
Schilling

Mike Mussina
David Cone
David Wells


I was surprised to see Kevin Brown on the Mitchell list. I wonder if it really was performance enhancing or just simply injury recovery. This whole scandel make the list of dominant pitchers for the 80s and 90s look a lot shorter now. David Cone looks much better now too.

JackWESQ

Steve,

I understand what you are getting as well. But where do we stop? The best example I can think of is what do we do with all the game ending homeruns that Bonds hit in the latter part of his career. (Or any game ending homerun that any alleged/admitted steroid user hit.) Do we turn all those games into losses? We certainly can't replay them. And, of course, the argument can be made that the Giants would have evetually won the game; but they could have eventually lost it as well.

/s/ JackWESQ

P.S. And in a similar vein, why isn't there a movement to have Mike Piazza declared the 1996 NL MVP (removing Ken Caminiti who admitted to using steroids prior to his passing.) Ah! What a mess steroids has done to the game of baseball. Or perhaps no mess at all because, well, to the majority of fans, how much do they really care?

SDSportsFan

Jack,

That's exactly my point. If MLB tries to remove stats/records, they better be prepared to go all the way.

That's why, in my opinion anyway, it just needs to be left alone. Take action to remove the drugs/steroids/HGH/etc..... from the game from today forward, but leave all the records the way they are.

And as for your last line, at this point, I'm like Rhett Butler at the end of Gone With the Wind...Frankly, I don't give a damn anymore. I just want them to get on with the game and start playing again! Quit worrying about the past, and start looking to the future!


Edited to add:

Anyway, to get this thread back on topic, I do think Maddux is right there at 1A. I do however, still think (my opinion) that Clemens is the best of this generation. I just don't really care who did what. Players have forever been trying to get that "magic elixir" to get whatever edge they needed to keep going or be the best. Steroids and HGH are just the latest incarnations of that desire. The players were just satifying baseball's desire to have a more exciting game, and give the fan's what we all wanted, after all, to quote the famous commercial..."Chicks Dig the Longball"; and pitchers had to compete with the hitters.


Steve

gregmo32

Yes.

Connecticoin

<< <i>so maybe Duquette was right when he thought Roger was washed up >>



Roger sucked (for him) in his last year in Boston. He got fat and lazy and still got a fair offer (4 years $24 million). He won 2 Cy Youngs in Toronto more to spite the Red Sox than to help Toronto.