As collectors do we have an obligation to get coins into the right plastic for our heirs, or was the
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
There is another thread going on the boards regarding whether we should care what the grade is on the plastic for coins that we intend to keep in our collections. I hope this thread isn’t too similar, but I will give it a shot.
In my opinion, we, as collectors, owe an obligation to our heirs to get our coins in the “correct plastic” almost immediately. By that I mean a plastic slab that is easily marketable, and a slab that has the “correct” grade printed on it. If, for example, a collector passes on and his heirs need to sell the collection, there is a very large risk that the heirs will not get full value for the coins upon sale because the holders are just “wrong”.
Thinking along these same lines, to my knowledge, the Reiver Collection of early copper was sold after Mr. Reiver passed away. I also understand that his collection was originally collected raw. Heritage saw to it that the coins were graded by the TPGs, and many of the coins ended up in NCS holders due to some minor problems. Was this situation of Heritage “taking care of” Reiver’s heirs a fluke, and something that we average collectors cannot count on? Should we, as collectors be more proactive in making sure our coins are in the right plastic, or should we assume that an auction firm (or someone else) will watch out for our heirs and make sure the coins are as marketable as possible?
In my opinion, we, as collectors, owe an obligation to our heirs to get our coins in the “correct plastic” almost immediately. By that I mean a plastic slab that is easily marketable, and a slab that has the “correct” grade printed on it. If, for example, a collector passes on and his heirs need to sell the collection, there is a very large risk that the heirs will not get full value for the coins upon sale because the holders are just “wrong”.
Thinking along these same lines, to my knowledge, the Reiver Collection of early copper was sold after Mr. Reiver passed away. I also understand that his collection was originally collected raw. Heritage saw to it that the coins were graded by the TPGs, and many of the coins ended up in NCS holders due to some minor problems. Was this situation of Heritage “taking care of” Reiver’s heirs a fluke, and something that we average collectors cannot count on? Should we, as collectors be more proactive in making sure our coins are in the right plastic, or should we assume that an auction firm (or someone else) will watch out for our heirs and make sure the coins are as marketable as possible?
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
If I die I will leave intructions to crack most coins out and have Stacks sell them raw. They appear to do very well selling raw material with minor problems for full problem free pricing.
Bottom line is each should do what they feel is appropiate for their heirs as everyone's collection, ideas, instructions will vary greatly. Personally I feel it's the collectors responsibility to have someone in the industry you trust completely for your heirs to contact with specific instructions for dispersal.
Check out my PQ selection of Morgan & Peace Dollars, and more at:
WWW.PQDOLLARS.COM or WWW.GILBERTCOINS.COM
Heirs and collectibles don't mix.
If you really stay up at night worrying about such a thing, then you should specify a select list of dealers who should be involved with the sale to get the most money for the collection. This will have a much higher bearing on the value they bring than the plastic.
The idea of the TPG is a relatavely new concept for older collectors and encasing or entombing them forever in such a way as to have someone else's opinon as to a specific grade in my opinion is de-grading....JMO.....!!!!
<< <i>should we assume that an auction firm (or someone else) will watch out for our heirs and make sure the coins are as marketable as possible? >>
never assume that. Too many stories of little old ladies getting ripped at the local B&M
<< <i>You should see a doctor about your condition. I would think it would be easier to just not collect if worrying about your heirs is such a concern. >>
Good advice. I will schedule an appointment with RYK as soon as possible.
For an estate as large as Longacre's, I feel as though I would be doing my heirs a disservice if I did not plan accordingly.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
ps. That was one long sentence
If the coin is worth having in plastic, then it's worth having it in the "right" plastic. Think of it as an "Easy" button.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I wonder how Eliasberg slept at night? >>
Very few coin collectors have the fame, notoriety, resources and quality of coins that Eliasberg had. He could sleep well at night knowing he had the infrastructure to sufficiently handle his collection wihtout his assistance. The great majority of collectors do not and will not have the luxury that he did and these people would be well served to get their collection as liquid and saleable as possible in preperation of their demise.
Eliasberg is an irrelevant comparison for all here with the exception of maybe TDN and StGuru.
It was unimportant to Jules and it is unimportant to many collectors, especially those that collect by die states and edge varieties.
The coins were never going to be sold when Jules was living and the encapsulation subject was only raised by some of the auctioneer applicants.
On another point, who is to say what kind of system will be in effect when the day of reckoning arrives. Will the coin be in the correct holder then? How much will you have spent encapsulating your coins in the meantime?
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>If your collection is not in PCGS holders and you die, you might as well take it with you.
Which sells for more - a PQ PCGS MS64 seated dollar or a so-so NGC MS65 of the same date?
<< <i>Which sells for more - a PQ PCGS MS64 seated dollar or a so-so NGC MS65 of the same date?
<< <i>If I die I will leave intructions to crack most coins out and have Stacks sell them raw. They appear to do very well selling raw material with minor problems for full problem free pricing. >>
Thanks for the warning.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I understand the sentiment stated by many here, that it is 'responsible' for a collector to have all of his coins slabbed while he is still alive to protect his heirs and the value of the collection, presuming a greater marketability for those coins in plastic. But in my opinion, Heritage and the TPG's did not provide the Reiver family any benefit by having so many of his coins placed in NCS slabs, with the very subjective and possibly misleading descriptions "Improperly Cleaned", "Damaged", and "Questionable Toning". Remember, this was a very specialized collection, sold, for the most part, to other specialists who could give a rip about such descriptions. They were purchasing the coins for the die marriage and die state, and were proud and happy to own them. The many red flags prompted by the mere fact that they were in NCS slabs served only to reduce the potential marketability of the coins, not increase it. In my opinion, the Reiver coins should have been sold just as they were collected - raw, and not in plastic.
Perhaps this is what is really being suggested here, that it behooves every collector to optimize the saleability or marketability of his coins before he assumes room temperature, and not leave that to others, after he is gone.
<< <i>Perhaps this is what is really being suggested here, that it behooves every collector to optimize the saleability or marketability of his coins before he assumes room temperature, and not leave that to others, after he is gone. >>
That's what it's about for me. I collect coins because I enjoy them deeply and enjoy the in depth study of them. Lets not fool anyone though, there is anothe reason I collect them...money. I like the idea of my family being able to gain some financial profit from my hobby of love once I'm not able to enjoy them. I want them to be able to sell the collection for the absolute most money they can and, regardless of what people may say, that is in a PCGS slab. A PCGS slab will not deter a specialist from bidding but the lack there of will most definitely deter a non-specialist from bidding.
Julian beat me to it. The right plastic today is not necessarily the right plastic of 10 or 20 years from now, just as the right plastic today isn't the same as the right plastic of 15 years ago.
<< <i>I have an idea. I'll figure the greatest potential drop in value if all my coins were raw instead of slabbed. I'll increase my term life insurance by an amount equal to that potential decrease in price realized on sale of the coins. The bump in the premium will be quite small. Then I can free the coins without worrying that my family will be any worse off due to my irresponsible action. Problem solved! >>
I would be more than willing to write a covered tax opinion on that transaction (for a small fee), and then we can market it to the numismatic community. Damn the traditional estate plans, this IGWT is a genius.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder how Eliasberg slept at night? >>
Eliasberg is an irrelevant comparison for all here with the exception of maybe TDN and StGuru. >>
He might be irrelevant to you, but not to me. His coins were sold, not the plastic. Has it occurred to you how Mr Eliasberg was able to aquire the finest coins without them being encapsulated? Or how the sellers of those coins knew they had the finest example without a TPG? People say that the TPGs bring some standardization to coin grading, but I think it has made us less knowledgable and lazy. We turned over one of the most important parts of coin collecting to a third party and now are at their mercy. The board is filled with threads on getting or not getting coins into the right plastic. Opinions on grade are the same whether the coin is raw or encapsulated. I cringe at the amount of money that has been spent on plastic encapsulation and the subsequent effect it has on the value of coins. I always thought that making money was a by-product of coin collecting, not a goal.
I intend to have my coins go to dealers who are knowledgable or market makers in those coins that have customers who are interested in the coins. This will be easier for me because I do not collect finest knowns nor have I rested my family's financial future on the value of something I do as a hobby.
I would be more than willing to write a covered tax opinion on that transaction (for a small fee), and then we can market it to the numismatic community. Damn the traditional estate plans, this IGWT is a genius.
I have an even better idea! We can form a group plan to insure against the risk of resubmittal downgrades. Maybe Hugh Wood, Inc. would be interested . . . Heck, people are more concerned about losing a point or two after a crackout than they are about out-and-out loss of a coin. The actuarial work would be a bear, but I know someone who's up to the task, and he might be willing to take an ownership interest as his fee. We could market participation in the plan through the ANA. Collectors would crack coins out of plastic left and right -- and enjoy their coins more than ever au naturel (the coins, not the collectors) -- if they were insured against the loss of a downgrade or BB.
And here's the beauty of it all . . . this plan would solve the so-called gradeflation problem! TPGs will gladly downgrade any coin that deserves to be downgraded so long as they don't incur any liability as a result. (There's no liability, of course, on coins that have been cracked out.) The cost of the downgrade will be spread among and shared by all participants in the plan. Whoa! I'm getting excited . . . .
<< <i>I have an idea. I'll figure the greatest potential drop in value if all my coins were raw instead of slabbed. I'll increase my term life insurance by an amount equal to that potential decrease in price realized on sale of the coins. The bump in the premium will be quite small. Then I can free the coins without worrying that my family will be any worse off due to my irresponsible action. Problem solved!
I would be more than willing to write a covered tax opinion on that transaction (for a small fee), and then we can market it to the numismatic community. Damn the traditional estate plans, this IGWT is a genius.
I have an even better idea! We can form a group plan to insure against the risk of resubmittal downgrades. Maybe Hugh Wood, Inc. would be interested . . . Heck, people are more concerned about losing a point or two after a crackout than they are about out-and-out loss of a coin. The actuarial work would be a bear, but I know someone who's up to the task, and he might be willing to take an ownership interest as his fee. We could market participation in the plan through the ANA. Collectors would crack coins out of plastic left and right -- and enjoy their coins more than ever au naturel (the coins, not the collectors) -- if they were insured against the loss of a downgrade or BB.
And here's the beauty of it all . . . this plan would solve the so-called gradeflation problem! TPGs will gladly downgrade any coin that deserves to be downgraded so long as they don't incur any liability as a result. (There's no liability, of course, on coins that have been cracked out.) The cost of the downgrade will be spread among and shared by all participants in the plan. Whoa! I'm getting excited . . . . >>
I'm sufficiently in a frenzy to pursue this. When can we speak?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Great - now we're going to market coins and Hedonism II to the masses in Iowa !
MBAs – put ‘em in a sack and drown ‘em!