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Coin ID?

silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭✭✭
in World & Ancient Coins Forum
Well i can't ID this old crusty Chinese coin

image

The coin is blank on the back

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Comments

  • satootokosatootoko Posts: 2,720 ✭


    << <i>The coin is blank on the back >>

    High probability that it is Japanese in that case. I'm checking it out.
    Roy


    image
  • DCHDCH Posts: 332
    China Northern Song. Emperor Hui Zong 1102-25. Chong Ning zhong bao, minted 1102-1106
    Will need to know the size to narrow it down any further.

    ~27mm H16.405 Small coin, probably unofficial. Cross referenced as FD 1048, S 620.
    ~31mm H16.406 Smaller size ? 5 Cash. No cross reference.
    ~36mm H16.407-16.409 10 Cash. FD 1050, S 622.

    All listed as very common.
  • satootokosatootoko Posts: 2,720 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The coin is blank on the back >>

    High probability that it is Japanese in that case. I'm checking it out. >>

    Well, it wasn't, as DCH pointed out. The Japanese reading of the characters (right, left, top, bottom) is "Ju Ho Ei Nei", which doesn't mean anything, or match any series.
    Roy


    image
  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭✭✭
    About an inch or so across

    Weighs less then 1oz (between 10 and 20 grams)

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  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,661 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That seems an awfully crisp strike and sharp detail for a Song Dynasty piece, at least in my (very limited) experience. Mine all have the dirt from the excavation on 'em, and are truly crusty.

    Are we sure it's real and not a replica/charm of some kind? I mean, the real ones are cheap enough- I think I paid two bucks apiece for mine, in bulk, but I know there are a lot of replicas out there. (Which were made not so much to fool anybody but for use in jewelry and charms and such...)

    If this one is crusty, I guess that's a good sign. It's way sharper than the ones I have, I can say that much.

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  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Took this back to the coin shop, all they could tell me is that it's real, and a specialty coin

    It from china but beyond that they had no idea

    the coin is very crusty, looks to be dug from the ground, the lighting i used makes the details sharper then they really are

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  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    DCH has indeed nailed it but I'll put in my two cents, or two cash, as the case may be.

    Ding Fubao (the "Ding" of Fisher's Ding) has some interesting notes on this issue. It was minted in the beginning of the 1102-1106 period and was first valued at 10 "cash" but the intrinsic value was far less and the coin was revalued to 5 in short order. The government was unable to stop private minting and eventually the coin was revalued once again to 3. There are examples cast in iron but they are rare.

    This can be found on page 96b of Ding Fubao. Ding numbered the three varieties DCH mentioned as 1048, 1049, and 1050. The Ding numbers are the same as the Fisher's Ding (FD) numbers.

    Roy, there are many examples of uniface cast coins in China and Korea, as well as Japan. I am not as familiar with the coins of Annam but I think there are uniface issues to be found among them as well.

    When reading the four character inscriptions there are two ways to do it: top-bottom-right-left or top-right-bottom-left. Given the position of the "zhong bao" in this case it has to be t-b-r-l. There is also a chongning yuanbao from this period but in that case the characters are read clockwise starting from the top (t-r-b-l).

    I am not sure but wouldn't the Japanese reading be "sunei juho?" I am not so good with Japanese readings but I think that might be the right one.

  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok,

    Now the question

    Does anyone have a good idea of exactly what kind of coin this is and where it's from?

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  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    Um, didn't we already identify it down to its catalogue number?image What more would you like to know? I have another reference that I haven't checked yet. I will see if I can find more information.
  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭✭✭
    All i have is a old standard catalog of world coins dated 2000 so what page would this coin be on?

    since i don't have this Ding Fubao book the info you gave me is not very useful to me

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  • DCHDCH Posts: 332
    The coin was minted c.1102 A.D., it's not listed in your book. You'll probably only find this coin listed in a specialized reference on Chinese cast coinage...Fisher's Ding, Hartill or Schjoth are the ones I know of.
  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok



    china cash coin made in 1102 A.D is the ID of this coin?

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  • satootokosatootoko Posts: 2,720 ✭


    << <i>Ok



    china cash coin made in 1102 A.D is the ID of this coin? >>

    Almost.

    "China cash coin made sometime about 1102 A.D."

    "c." in front of a date stands for "circa", Latin for "about".
    Roy


    image
  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok

    So the coin was made in the 1100's basically and is a cash coin from china

    Good enough info for me to put it into my collection


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  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    Silverpop, I gave you just about all the info in Ding Fubao. As the others have said, I don't think you are going to find this in general world coin books. We do know for sure that it was minted between 1102 and 1106 and probably in the earlier years of that range.

    I am home now so I will see what else I can find in my other references...
  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,661 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey, you're "Prince colin" over on 24!

    That just dawned on me.

    It was seeing that coin and then seeing your avatar over there that clued me in.

    image

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  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    Oh, that's right! I forgot that you guys were the same!

    I found a great deal of information on this coin, by the way, far more than most people would ever want to know. Lots of stuff on variations in calligraphy, size and weight, mints, regions of circulation, revaluations, counterfeiting issues (punishable by death!) and the like but the little tidbit from Ding wraps it up, I suppose. My Chinese is not good enough for me to get through all the text right away. image The entry goes on for pages and pages.

    There is so much to know in this world. Where will we ever find the time to study everything?

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