Why have more toned Matte Proof Lincolns cents
BWRC
Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭
shown up recently?
Here is my take on some recent discussion. I wanted to start a new thread so this reply would not get buried in another post.
About 2 1/2 years ago I noticed Tim Liston had a couple of MPL registry sets listed. In his introduction to his #1 set he spoke about how nicely toned his coins were, that the set was put together in the early 1990's and all of the coins were in "old green tag holders". It seemed evident to me that these coins were very undervalued and not appreciated at the time. I talked with a customer and friend of mine Cohodk and we agreed how tough these coins were to find and especially with nice toning or brite red color. Also, another dealer friend who I will not name started searching out nice toned examples. He literally traveled the country to hunt down stunning MPL cents! Cohodk asked me to find him nice toned examples to help him build his PCGS Registry set of MPL cents. Having helped other collectors to built registry sets in the past, I encouraged new collectors to start registering their sets at PCGS with "nice images" of the coins. This was been a factor in new MPL toned images showing up in the PCGS Registry sets recently.
Alot of these coins were flushed out by this dealer friend of mine buying from collectors who had partially complete MPL sets. When offered what seemed crazy money at the time they sold their coins to him. This huge jump in price brought out alot of coins that were previously buried away. For example, a cardiologist from the east coast who had some amazing toned MPL cents sold his collection to this dealer and Cohodk. Another set of amazing toners from a California collector was purchased by this dealer and these coins went into sets with their images displayed. Cohodk's signature line is mostly made up of coins from these two collections. I put the word out that I was buying all nicely toned MPL cents and being a dealer who attends all of the major shows and known by many of the major dealers these coins were now being offered to me. When the MPL's were purchased by me I would sell them to my customers who were starting or already had PCGS MPL Registry sets.
I am now viewed by some dealers as the "go to guy" for MPL's and its not like a flood of these coins are coming my way. Also, I want to make it clear that I don't deal only in toned Matte Proof cents but other small cents as well. Also, I have handled many non toned RB/BN MPL's. I can also say that I have bought many toned MPL cents in older style holders. Many of these holders are lost when coins are tried for regrade or cracked out for trueview. Jack Slattery's 1910 PCGS PR67RB toner is in a "OGH holder" his 1916 is in the old 7 digit blue holder. Both of these holders will soon be lost when he regrades his set to get his name placed on the complete 9 coin set. Cohodk has shown me auction catologs from the 1970's and 80's with MPL's for sale were nice toning is mentioned for some of the coins.
In summary, when you get a few dealer's making a market in a certain series and paying strong money for coins this brings new coins to the market. Many new PCGS Registry sets have been built with toned coins recently so those coins have made their appearance to the collecting public. The days of cheap MPL's are gone. I am not saying that a few of these coins could be "questionable" but there are questionable coins in holders of every series. The MPL's are no different, If someone can create coins that look like the 4 1914's I posted in ahooka's 1914 poll post on this forum then they are from a "realm" that is beyond my comprehension.
ahooka's 1914 poll post
Here is my take on some recent discussion. I wanted to start a new thread so this reply would not get buried in another post.
About 2 1/2 years ago I noticed Tim Liston had a couple of MPL registry sets listed. In his introduction to his #1 set he spoke about how nicely toned his coins were, that the set was put together in the early 1990's and all of the coins were in "old green tag holders". It seemed evident to me that these coins were very undervalued and not appreciated at the time. I talked with a customer and friend of mine Cohodk and we agreed how tough these coins were to find and especially with nice toning or brite red color. Also, another dealer friend who I will not name started searching out nice toned examples. He literally traveled the country to hunt down stunning MPL cents! Cohodk asked me to find him nice toned examples to help him build his PCGS Registry set of MPL cents. Having helped other collectors to built registry sets in the past, I encouraged new collectors to start registering their sets at PCGS with "nice images" of the coins. This was been a factor in new MPL toned images showing up in the PCGS Registry sets recently.
Alot of these coins were flushed out by this dealer friend of mine buying from collectors who had partially complete MPL sets. When offered what seemed crazy money at the time they sold their coins to him. This huge jump in price brought out alot of coins that were previously buried away. For example, a cardiologist from the east coast who had some amazing toned MPL cents sold his collection to this dealer and Cohodk. Another set of amazing toners from a California collector was purchased by this dealer and these coins went into sets with their images displayed. Cohodk's signature line is mostly made up of coins from these two collections. I put the word out that I was buying all nicely toned MPL cents and being a dealer who attends all of the major shows and known by many of the major dealers these coins were now being offered to me. When the MPL's were purchased by me I would sell them to my customers who were starting or already had PCGS MPL Registry sets.
I am now viewed by some dealers as the "go to guy" for MPL's and its not like a flood of these coins are coming my way. Also, I want to make it clear that I don't deal only in toned Matte Proof cents but other small cents as well. Also, I have handled many non toned RB/BN MPL's. I can also say that I have bought many toned MPL cents in older style holders. Many of these holders are lost when coins are tried for regrade or cracked out for trueview. Jack Slattery's 1910 PCGS PR67RB toner is in a "OGH holder" his 1916 is in the old 7 digit blue holder. Both of these holders will soon be lost when he regrades his set to get his name placed on the complete 9 coin set. Cohodk has shown me auction catologs from the 1970's and 80's with MPL's for sale were nice toning is mentioned for some of the coins.
In summary, when you get a few dealer's making a market in a certain series and paying strong money for coins this brings new coins to the market. Many new PCGS Registry sets have been built with toned coins recently so those coins have made their appearance to the collecting public. The days of cheap MPL's are gone. I am not saying that a few of these coins could be "questionable" but there are questionable coins in holders of every series. The MPL's are no different, If someone can create coins that look like the 4 1914's I posted in ahooka's 1914 poll post on this forum then they are from a "realm" that is beyond my comprehension.
ahooka's 1914 poll post
Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.
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Comments
quite a look inside on the world of matty's there.i can only imagine how incredibly undervalued they have been with myself only finding interest some 6 months ago.
it is to me reassuring that 2 of my 3 matty's have linkage from you especially upon reading your bio's.
i truly am the type of guy who stumbled and never got up after my divorce and never will be "rich" but it amazes me to see the depth of humility which spills forth here.
"ya'll aren't stuck up n snobbish even though you have single coins worth my whole net worth"
i still see lower grade matty's as last chance in bargins but funny thing is...even at lower grades these matty's just have something that speak out kinda like lil pieces of national treasure.
anyway great post brian and i hope never to offend no one here as i come out of the dark forrest so to speak
ahooka,
The last line basically says that if coin doctors are good enough to create copper coins that look like the 1914's I have displayed in your 1914 poll post then
all toned copper coins in any collection should be considered questionable.
i really like that 67 1914 you posted. so did my 4yr old lil girl. go figure...
i am not sure if i asked you but i think you commented, what do you think about this 1914 in question? not indepth toning issues but this specific coin?
ahooka,
Thanks for the kind words.
In answer to your other question I will send you a PM in a few minutes.
Ted,
To you also, thanks alot for your kind words!
Brian, gmarguli freely admits that he bought that 1914, changed its appearance, and had it reholdered. I don't know why you would question an admission like that.
I think you might have misunderstood my post. The comments I make are about the 4 coins I posted images of in apooka's "1914 poll post", not the post he earlier made about this other 1914 NGC star coin. I know the story behind the other 1914 and agree with what was said on these boards by some of the posters concerning it's past history. Hope this clears things up.
apooka's 1914 poll post
I bring this up because when I was looking for low budget Mattes, I discovered even THEY are scarce. So what ever your budget is, no matter how hard you look you will have difficulty getting a complete set to meet your grade and budget requirements. That is why I started the weekly Matte Proof list. So those of you who want them can find them and see them and compare prices and better appreciate their true worth. The trend of this list since I started has always been higher end examples available then low end. I think that proves my point about low end scarcity.
I agree with Brian, the trend has been that those who are not real impressed with the coin, are bringing them out to sell because of the incredible price differences from the 2-$300 they paid when compared to the 2-$3000 you can now expect to pay for the same coin today.. And just like gasoline, they are going to keep going up.
Lastly any Matte needs a close look. I once bought a cleaned 1909 VDB. I use to look at it wonder what Fing idiot would do such a thing to such a scarce coin as this. If I ever find out, to heck with water boarding, something even more severe should be done to them for such an injustice. Maybe we should make them recolor 63 –D’s. I have several rolls they can start working on.
WS
Yo Brian, you are definitely the "go to guy" in my book.
<< <i>Yo Brian, you are definitely the "go to guy" in my book. >>
I agree with you Jack.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
made a desion regarding this questionable 1914 ngc66*, i will not be keeping it. i see from the wrods on these posts that the very people i would be marketing this coin to already know of it and i didnt. now i do and reallly look forward to having all of you as friends in the hobby.
by the shear number of people helping me here, i know my generation of collectors is in good hands.
to everyone here, thank you for helping me avoid a $2500 mistake.
i guess this is why i should stick to my 63-64s. they offer me more anyway.
i saw a oppurtunity and jumped withoutasking for advice, luckily here theyre are people who Will help a yn with his hobby and passion.
if it took me almost being f-ed with a coin to really see the comradery here in the hobby of kings.
thanks to all of you who helped me here.
a true testiment to our hobby and the collectors before us.
i am in awwww of your matte set. omg amazing, simply amazing...
<< <i>hey cruly,
i am in awwww of your matte set. omg amazing, simply amazing... >>
Thank you brother, I appreciate it.