IS THE PROBLEM HERE THEN SIMPLY THE GRADING COMPANY?
wondercoin
Posts: 16,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
We have seen on another thread that many serious collectors believe that the "monster color" coins are justified to command 10x or 20x the "white price" as these are unique works of art. One well-respected collector believes the proper test on when to stop bidding for a killer toned coin is when the "wallet bleeds dry".
We have seen time and time again that the MS66 super colored commem can command MS68 money, or the MS65 coin can command MS67+ money.
Well, I think I have finally figured out what the problem is then. THE GRADING COMPANIES ARE SIMPLY NOT REWARDING THESE COINS HIGH ENOUGH GRADES BASED UPON COLOR. While strike, luster, eye appeal and other factors go into grading, the "monster toned" coins are simply not getting enough credit for their incredible eye appeal. Who cares if the most beautiful Washington Quarter has a couple small pinpricks. With monster color it should grade MS68!! And, who cares if a Cleveland with the finest color imaginable has some marks on it. It should grade MS68!! And, on and on and on.
Great eye appeal should weigh heavily in the coins grade. These MS65 graded incredible colored Morgans are rediculous. These coins should get at least a couple more grading points for eye appeal ALONE!!
This is perfectly logical. So what is the problem? Are the grading companies simply too conservative? Or, concerned with future toning changes that would later impact grade. Or, simply color blind to these incredible works of art? That MS65 Hawaiian that just sold at FUN for nearly $23,000 in a fierce competition among the best and the brightest coin dealers and collectors in the country-why not simply grade the darn coin MS67 in the first place for its eye appeal alone!!
I have the most incredible 1940's dated Monster toned silver quarter imaginable. I can stare at this coin for 30 minutes each day for a month and never grow tired of it. Eye appeal wise, it simply "blows away" all -4- MS68 silver quarters PCGS has graded MS68 in its 14+ year history (and I am one of the few people out there that has reviewed all -4- MS68 coins). Yet, my coin is in an MS67 holder because there are a few tiny marks (which none of the MS68 quarters admittedly have). This "ultra-technical" grading may be what is really at the root of why collectors need to bid 20x the sheet price for a coin. This generation of serious collectors is not grading killer coins using an "ultra-tchnical" standard, but rather greatly rewarding eye appeal and willing to forgive a couple marks when the coin "jumps out and performs for you".
Is "ultra-technical" grading really at the heart of the problem?
Wondercoin.
We have seen time and time again that the MS66 super colored commem can command MS68 money, or the MS65 coin can command MS67+ money.
Well, I think I have finally figured out what the problem is then. THE GRADING COMPANIES ARE SIMPLY NOT REWARDING THESE COINS HIGH ENOUGH GRADES BASED UPON COLOR. While strike, luster, eye appeal and other factors go into grading, the "monster toned" coins are simply not getting enough credit for their incredible eye appeal. Who cares if the most beautiful Washington Quarter has a couple small pinpricks. With monster color it should grade MS68!! And, who cares if a Cleveland with the finest color imaginable has some marks on it. It should grade MS68!! And, on and on and on.
Great eye appeal should weigh heavily in the coins grade. These MS65 graded incredible colored Morgans are rediculous. These coins should get at least a couple more grading points for eye appeal ALONE!!
This is perfectly logical. So what is the problem? Are the grading companies simply too conservative? Or, concerned with future toning changes that would later impact grade. Or, simply color blind to these incredible works of art? That MS65 Hawaiian that just sold at FUN for nearly $23,000 in a fierce competition among the best and the brightest coin dealers and collectors in the country-why not simply grade the darn coin MS67 in the first place for its eye appeal alone!!
I have the most incredible 1940's dated Monster toned silver quarter imaginable. I can stare at this coin for 30 minutes each day for a month and never grow tired of it. Eye appeal wise, it simply "blows away" all -4- MS68 silver quarters PCGS has graded MS68 in its 14+ year history (and I am one of the few people out there that has reviewed all -4- MS68 coins). Yet, my coin is in an MS67 holder because there are a few tiny marks (which none of the MS68 quarters admittedly have). This "ultra-technical" grading may be what is really at the root of why collectors need to bid 20x the sheet price for a coin. This generation of serious collectors is not grading killer coins using an "ultra-tchnical" standard, but rather greatly rewarding eye appeal and willing to forgive a couple marks when the coin "jumps out and performs for you".
Is "ultra-technical" grading really at the heart of the problem?
Wondercoin. Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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Comments
I have actually found that on some Monster rainbow coins, PCGS LOWERS the grade a point or two just to be extra cautious.
Mitch, remember that 1971-D Peac0ck Ike PCGS gave an MS65 grade too? We know that is not a $40.00 MS65 Ike, right?
Let PCGS do what they do best: authenticate the toning and give us a technical grade. We, the Collector of these beauties can assign the real "grade" (ie: value) amongst ourselves.
peacockcoins
I thought they already rewarded color... ugly grey brown on all the MS67 Washingtons, Rossevelts, and Franklins from the 50s and 60s. And let's not forget that but t ugly 1964 Kennedy we saw in MS67!
Or were these coins mosters when they were graded, and have aged poorly?
I know myself when I see a Monster toned coin, that meets my criteria for that designation
Boy do we have a weird hobby...LOL
Greg
Pat: Yes, I remember that 1971(d) Ike-the one you repeatedly commented to me "I got robbed"; "I got robbed". Is that the coin you are referring to (the Mai Tais may have distorted my memory)
a superb toned common date morgan dollar in MS65 that sells for about $90 white and average might bring upwards of $2500, or a 67/68 price depending on the date.
If PCGS were to market grade these coins and put them into 67/68 holders were there value is, they would be sold as monster toned 68's with price tage of $10k+
big problem.
Kyle
I think they should totally do away with 1-70 grading
and give each coin a dollar grade. No more MS66s,
each coin will be compared to every other coin in the
series and given a dollar value based on population, eye appeal
and technical merits. No more will collectors
have use common sense and a discerning eye, they can look
at two slabs and instantly realize the $1300 is obviously
"better" than the $1150.
A most reasonable solution.
-Keith H
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
BigD5: I never said you do. I said you change the grade when the coin PERFORMS FOR YOU. When you can sit in your chair with a fine cigar or glass of Dom, or Old Milwaukee and stare at your coin for 30 minutes and smile because of the electrifying color -THEN RAISE THE DARN GRADE!!!
Ken
Ken, yeah I know where the grading scale came from. My post was a joke,
that's what tongue-in-cheek means.
> because there is a no consensus that a "blast white" one isn't just as desireable
BigE, you're not allowed to say that. Toned coins are worth multiples
of white coins. Take it back. Take it back!
-Keith H
Oops, forgot you had tongue-firmly-in-cheek!
And you're right - toned coins are worth multiples of white ones. That's cause you can take a toned coin and turn it into a blast white coin in just a few seconds. You can't take white ones and turned them into monster-toned coins in a few seconds. Well, maybe some people can, but if they get caught they will be sent to their rooms without supper.
Ken
You assume too much when you think a set value can be placed on any coin. Some would value a coin higher, some lower. My perception is that the common coins are always available at a discount whereas the rare coins always command a premium - doesn't matter what sheet says. This would pertain to rare and beautiful color as well.
Mitch- I was robbed! Really. I mean, even without that color, the coin has the surfaces of an MS66+ coin. But, in all fairness, I'm just glad PCGS slabbed this one. They could have decided simply not to risk it and bodybag it all together.
The interesting point- and one you've made well on this Thread Mitch, is I was required to go out in the world and find a MS66 clad Ike for my Registry. Imagine that. I had to find a coin that was lacking what this "MS65" has just to remain competitive. What's that all about?!
peacockcoins
my feedback
My neg. (read the adjacent-above-feedbacks)
Great thread!
You just illustrated perfectly the point I was making in my thread "A new certified-coin registry".
In that system, you would undoubtedly have several outstanding bids on your colorful 65 Ike that would have (rightfully) placed it above most other 66's in the registry.
Ken
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Ken
Buyer paid big bucks in a free market for a coin that obviously triggered some deep desire, seller is likely deliriously happy, auctioneer made a bundle, sounds like everyone is happy.
What's the problem?
1. If the toning turns to cr*p in the holder, the purchaser is probably outta luck as far as a grading guarantee at PCGS. They'd only reimburse to the tune of the number on the label.
2. Monster toned coins are one of the examples as to why The Numerical Rank of Your Set Has Little Relevance To its Value and Desirability and is Virtually Pointless. (You might disagree with his post, but you gotta love that descriptive title!)
However, I really doubt PCGS views #1 as a "problem".
As far as #2, I hope even registry diehards would agree we shouldn't start changing grading standards to fit the registry.
And if an MS66 monster toned sells for far more than say a highest-graded brilliant MS67, do you make it an MS68? That gets too weird.
So I guess I talked myself out of it, I'm back to "what's the problem"?
I realize that's not a completely true statement, as PCGS already market grades many issues (i.e. if a certain date is always weakly struck, it is cut some slack).
But if you throw toning in as a grading factor that seems to trade one "problem" for some others. Toning is probably the most subjective part of a coins value. PCGS is already more inconsistent grading toned coins than brilliant (in my experience) and I wouldn't want to see this inconsistency become even larger based upon what some then-current PCGS grader thought was attractive.
Toned and brilliant coins are just too different of animals to be able to say "well technically this monster toned coin is an MS66, but since this date is seldom found nicely toned it'd probably sell for as much as a brilliant MS68, so that's its grade". And of course toning enthusiasm can change dramatically, which would cause many market-graded toned coins to suddenly be the "wrong" grade.
Of course, not having seen the commem in question myself, maybe it's only technically a 64 and they already upgraded it a couple of points.
I absolutely agree on that premise, as far as the desirability of the coin (having often paid "loony" money for toned coins myself, even larger in terms of percentage
Currently PCGS is inconsistent -- I have coins with attractive toning where PCGS has upgraded the coin, and other times downgraded it, as compared to where it stands on technical merits.
So if they can't get it "right" now, I'd hate to see them try harder and make those swings even wilder.
EMAIL:
relictrader@suddenlink.net
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
peacockcoins
..unlimited funds..............
.........."i`ll pay whatever..."
pop. 1 just joins the "board" - now wonderboy posts he wants to buy the highest grade in every series...
who can bid against bottomless pockets when a silver spooned egomaniac wants to have the #1 registry set of everything ??
I will go see the Dolly LLama and my favorite Buddah for guidence......ooooooooooohhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm