I'm tired of people using the "MS65 to MS66 is the same as MS69 to MS70" phrase.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

I hear it brought up constantly when people debate collecting MS70/PR70 coins.

This analogy is entirely invalid. Show and MS65 coin to someone, and show an MS66 coin to someone, and usually (if the coins are correctly graded) there is an obvious difference in quality. Show someone and MS69 coin and then show them an MS70, and unless there is an obvious contact mark, they will not be able to tell a difference. The truth of the matter is, MS65 vs MS66 there is an obvious difference, and MS69 to MS70 there is literally none.

notwilight

I disagree. Do you collect any series such as Gold Buffalos where 69 and 70 are are the dominant grades? Have you ever looked at hundreds of them like you have 65's and 66's?

I collect both classic and modern coins. I have looked at both. I see classic coins posted here and the guesses come from 63 to 66 on the same coin. So i don't see how the 65 is more obvious than the 69.

--jerry

Cgb

People have actually been saying MS 66 is as equal to MS 65 as 70 is to 69? I have never heard this, and I believe that statement would be bunk.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>
I collect both classic and modern coins. I have looked at both. I see classic coins posted here and the guesses come from 63 to 66 on the same coin. So i don't see how the 65 is more obvious than the 69.
>>



The variation in guessed grades comes from a number of factors. First of all, some people here (and I don't mean to offend anyone) simply can't grade very well. Second, it's tough to grade a coin from a picture. Third, not everything on a ocin is always represented well in a picture.

Show an educated grader, in hand, a 65 and 66, and there's a difference. Show them a 69 and 70 and there really isn't one.

MrEureka

MS65 vs MS66 there is an obvious difference, and MS69 to MS70 there is literally none.

"Literally" or "almost"?

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i> MS65 vs MS66 there is an obvious difference, and MS69 to MS70 there is literally none.

"Literally" or "almost"? >>



With occasional exceptions, I feel there is absolutely no difference.

MrEureka

With occasional exceptions, I feel there is absolutely no difference.

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. I'd say more, but I'll leave it to Wondercoin. He's probably typing an essay at this very moment!

GoldenEyeNumismatics

That's very possible, but does that mean you believe there usually is a difference?

MrEureka

That's very possible, but does that mean you believe there usually is a difference?

If you're asking me if I believe I can see the difference, the answer is yes.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i> That's very possible, but does that mean you believe there usually is a difference?

If you're asking me if I believe I can see the difference, the answer is yes. >>



Then go out there, crack out all those "PQ" MS69's, get 'em in 70 holders and make all the money you can!

notwilight

<< <i>

<< <i> I collect both classic and modern coins. I have looked at both. I see classic coins posted here and the guesses come from 63 to 66 on the same coin. So i don't see how the 65 is more obvious than the 69. >>

The variation in guessed grades comes from a number of factors. First of all, some people here (and I don't mean to offend anyone) simply can't grade very well. Second, it's tough to grade a coin from a picture. Third, not everything on a ocin is always represented well in a picture. Show an educated grader, in hand, a 65 and 66, and there's a difference. Show them a 69 and 70 and there really isn't one. >>



I agree with you on all counts. Many of those who say 69 and 70 are identical have never seen anything but a photo. --jerry

notwilight

<< <i>

<< <i> That's very possible, but does that mean you believe there usually is a difference? If you're asking me if I believe I can see the difference, the answer is yes. >>

Then go out there, crack out all those "PQ" MS69's, get 'em in 70 holders and make all the money you can! >>



Cracking out a PQ 69 and resubmitting it is as common as cracking out a PQ 65 saint. --jerry

MrEureka

Then go out there, crack out all those "PQ" MS69's, get 'em in 70 holders and make all the money you can!

Not a chance. Why would I spend my time looking at that crap when I can make money in more interesting ways?

IGWT

I've never seen a coin that's graded 69 or 70, but I suspect that the difference isn't one that I would appreciate.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i> That's very possible, but does that mean you believe there usually is a difference? If you're asking me if I believe I can see the difference, the answer is yes. >>

Then go out there, crack out all those "PQ" MS69's, get 'em in 70 holders and make all the money you can! >>



Cracking out a PQ 69 and resubmitting it is as common as cracking out a PQ 65 saint. --jerry >>



Yes, but when someone cracks out a 65 Saint it's based on real knowledge of grading. When someone cracks out a PQ 69 it's really just because they can't see anything wrong with the coin.

They're similar in some aspects, yet worlds apart in others.

tradedollarnut

I stood in line behind someone showing HRH a modern coin at Long Beach one time. His question was 'why isn't this a 70?' After what seemed like eternity scouring the coin with a loupe, HRH said 'here it is - see this tiny lintmark here'?

That convinced me that the difference between a 69 and a 70 is something that I simply cannot appreciate and would never pay for. At least the difference between a 65 vs 66 is macro and readily apparent.

Coxe

<< <i>

<< <i> That's very possible, but does that mean you believe there usually is a difference?

If you're asking me if I believe I can see the difference, the answer is yes. >>



Then go out there, crack out all those "PQ" MS69's, get 'em in 70 holders and make all the money you can! >>



No, then go crack out a 70 and resubmit it. Try that a few times to see how consistent the 70 grade really is. Not sure why CW or some other entity hasn't gone and done that. When they can demonstrate that a 69 resubmitted 10 times comes back a 69 most of them and a 70 cracked and resubmitted also does, then I'll believe in the TPGs are on the mark on the 70 grade and that there is a perceivable difference. Even if that would happen though, and I seriously doubt the results would affirm 69/70 differentiation consistency, I wouldn't buy the price difference or that it will hold up long term.

leothelyon

I believe each of us take up a realm of space that rarely extends beyond our capacity to experience it all. This is why every collector can choose to exist mostly in a world amongst themselves which allows for life in an alter state of id. As far as seeing a difference between two separate grades is all in the mind of the individual who might want the label verses an extra quality. Common sense would lend more to the latter than the former. Buying such labels are for egotistic reasons especially when the product does not show a significant observable change in it's present state.



Leo

veryfine

<< <i>

<< <i>
I collect both classic and modern coins. I have looked at both. I see classic coins posted here and the guesses come from 63 to 66 on the same coin. So i don't see how the 65 is more obvious than the 69.
>>



The variation in guessed grades comes from a number of factors. First of all, some people here (and I don't mean to offend anyone) simply can't grade very well. Second, it's tough to grade a coin from a picture. Third, not everything on a ocin is always represented well in a picture.

Show an educated grader, in hand, a 65 and 66, and there's a difference. Show them a 69 and 70 and there really isn't one. >>



So, based on your refined grading sensibility, you can easily tell the difference between a high end MS65 and a low end MS66. If, for example, you were told to examine 10 mint state 38D Buffalo nickels, you would be able to pluck out the the 65s and 66s? Let's say another highly experienced grader is given the same challenge. Same results? After all, according to you, these grades are clearly understood by educated graders.
Now I can rest easy knowing that my "MS66" 38D nickel is clearly and factually, a no questions asked MS66? Not a just-miss 66, graded 65.999999999999999999999999999999999?

RNCHSN

I agreee with Leo!

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>...the difference between a 69 and a 70 is something that I simply cannot appreciate and would never pay for. At least the difference between a 65 vs 66 is macro and readily apparent. >>


My thoughts exactly.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>
I collect both classic and modern coins. I have looked at both. I see classic coins posted here and the guesses come from 63 to 66 on the same coin. So i don't see how the 65 is more obvious than the 69.
>>



The variation in guessed grades comes from a number of factors. First of all, some people here (and I don't mean to offend anyone) simply can't grade very well. Second, it's tough to grade a coin from a picture. Third, not everything on a ocin is always represented well in a picture.

Show an educated grader, in hand, a 65 and 66, and there's a difference. Show them a 69 and 70 and there really isn't one. >>



So, based on your refined grading sensibility, you can easily tell the difference between a high end MS65 and a low end MS66. If, for example, you were told to examine 10 mint state 38D Buffalo nickels, you would be able to pluck out the the 65s and 66s? Let's say another highly experienced grader is given the same challenge. Same results? After all, according to you, these grades are clearly understood by educated graders.
Now I can rest easy knowing that my "MS66" 38D nickel is clearly and factually, a no questions asked MS66? Not a just-miss 66, graded 65.999999999999999999999999999999999? >>



Turn the tables.

Give a grader ten 69 and 70 SAE's, and I'd bet all my money that his accuracy would be drastically worse than it would be with the nickels.

Nobody is going to be perfect when it comes to grading, and sometimes the line between grades becomes fuzzy. But by the way, I never stated that someone would be able to grade a 65 vs a 66 perfectly, I just said that when compared side by side, someone would (most of the time) be able to pick out the better of the two correctly graded coins.

djdilliodon

A MS-70 or PF-70 is suppose to be a coin that is absolutely perfect that shows no flaws under magnification. A 69 graded coin can show 1-2 minuscule marks that may or may not need magnification but will def be hard to spot without the use of magnification. While that maybe a slight difference and when viewing the coin in a holder chances are you will not see these imperfections unless you really look for them, IMO the 70 grade is for bragging rights. For the collector that can say my coin is perfect and yours isnt

veryfine

<< <i>
Turn the tables.

Give a grader ten 69 and 70 SAE's, and I'd bet all my money that his accuracy would be drastically worse than it would be with the nickels.

Nobody is going to be perfect when it comes to grading, and sometimes the line between grades becomes fuzzy. But by the way, I never stated that someone would be able to grade a 65 vs a 66 perfectly, I just said that when compared side by side, someone would (most of the time) be able to pick out the better of the two correctly graded coins. >>



Point well taken.
My issue with this topic is the "just-miss" 65/66 scenario. Unlike the common date 38D nickel, the price difference between 65 and 66 can be astronomical for many coins. If I were purchasing a coin with a large price jump between these grades, I would be extremely nervous. Even with expert certification, I would need to be more than just "in agreement" with the assigned grade.

leothelyon

<< <i>I agreee with Leo! >>




Hey, there's no kool-aid on my chin!


Leo

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>

<< <i>
Turn the tables.

Give a grader ten 69 and 70 SAE's, and I'd bet all my money that his accuracy would be drastically worse than it would be with the nickels.

Nobody is going to be perfect when it comes to grading, and sometimes the line between grades becomes fuzzy. But by the way, I never stated that someone would be able to grade a 65 vs a 66 perfectly, I just said that when compared side by side, someone would (most of the time) be able to pick out the better of the two correctly graded coins. >>



Point well taken.
My issue with this topic is the "just-miss" 65/66 scenario. Unlike the common date 38D nickel, the price difference between 65 and 66 can be astronomical for many coins. If I were purchasing a coin with a large price jump between these grades, I would be extremely nervous. Even with expert certification, I would need to be more than just "in agreement" with the assigned grade. >>



Although there could certainly be debates as to whether a specific coin is 65 or 66, that should not happen with 70's.

A 70 should never be a coin that "just made it." A 70 shouldn't have anything wrong with it.

cladking

a lot of coins that exist in 70 were made in a very narrow range. There
were probably no '53-S halfs made in MS-70 or even close to it while some
of the recent Proof eagles were mostly made in 68 to 70 with only a few
PR-67's and the scarce 66. It just seems to stand to reason that when a
coin is made in a very narrow range that the gradations might be finer.
If an indian cent, '53-S half, or Ike were graded in MS-70 there's no reason
it would have to have fine grade ranges.

There is usually a pretty wide difference between the typical MS-65 and
MS-66 but it's probably true that each coin has to be viewed individually.
It's probably not true that the range is necessarily wider for the lower
grades. I would tend to agree it usually is in practice especially for some
proofs. As a good rule of thumb; if a coin can appear to be virtually flaw-
less then there is an increased likelyhood that other coins of the same
issue will be nearly as nice.

Coxe

Another point to make is that the value of a typical coin that were are talking about in the 65 and 66 ranges is partially technical grade and partially eye appeal. OTOH, the ultramodern 69 and 70 coins, ignoring postslab milkspotting, are entirely valued by assigned technical grade. There can be some grey area technically in the 65 to 66 ranges, but the grade is neither going to sell or price the coin reliably. Eye appeal has a lot to say about it a lot of the time. Where is the room for that in the, theoretically perfect, 70 grade coin? Can you choose a superior 70 among its 70 peers? Marketiuing a 70 is marketing plastic, nothing more or less. Nobody is going to pay 70 money for a PQ 69 they feel is a 70. People will pay 66 money for a 65 slabbed coin that is superior in eye appeal.

tahoe98

no POOF yet?