What would make a coin "rare" and not just "scarce"?

pcgs69

It seems for the most part they can be used interchangeably (spelling?), but there does seem to be a difference... what do you think?

STONE

I think of a scarce coin as a coin where the population for that grade is tough to get, whereas a rare coin is just tough to find for the total survival.

gtstang

I see scarce as you know there's more out there but not sure of the numbers, it's just a matter of finding them. Rare is you you pretty much know the population and or mintage numbers and it's low.

Artist

I think they are relative to one another - rare is less than scarce.

A 1913 Liberty Nickel is rare, a 94-S Dime rare; but a 1913 Libterty Nickel is more scarce than a 94-S Dime.

Coxe

There is a rarity scale that clearly makes rare much less common than scarce. I don't have it handy and I know the one for Morgan/Peace dollars differs from the normal one. We generally appreciate the differences, but most folks on eBay probably don't. It is like the differences between idiot, imbecile and moron; they are profoundly different and defined by equivalent mental ages, abstraction capabilities, and intelligence quotient ranges.

RareBronzeCollector

Often they are used in a confusing context......

There are RARE coins that are readily available...... And there are scarce and very scarce coins that seldom seen......

vplite

MrHalfDime

According to the Sheldon rarity scale, R5 and above (31-75 pieces extant) is RARE. R4 (76-200 pieces extant) is VERY SCARCE. R3 (201-500 pieces extant) is SCARCE. Most collectors of the early Federal silver coins, and also early copper, adhere to this definition.

fc

i agree with mrhalfdime and his post.

rare to me means less then 75 exist and when it comes to half
eagles only a handful out of the 201 coins in the lib series should
even be called rare.

extremely rare. 1854S and the 1875P
rare. 1862P and 1863P.
very scarce. 1860S and the 1866 no motto.
scarce. 1866 with motto.
.
.
common as sin. 1861P.
etc...

Steve

<< <i>According to the Sheldon rarity scale, R5 and above (31-75 pieces extant) is RARE. R4 (76-200 pieces extant) is VERY SCARCE. R3 (201-500 pieces extant) is SCARCE. Most collectors of the early Federal silver coins, and also early copper, adhere to this definition. >>



Sounds real simple .... BUT.... what is your definition of "extant" or "exist". Except for a few real rarities like the 1913 Liberty nickel, we really don't know EXACTLY how many exist. Sure we know how many were minted, but that doesn't tell us how many are REALLY out there to be collected TODAY. So what may seem to be scarce may really be rare and visa-versa. I happen to own a 1909VDB Matte Proof Lincoln cent. Historically reported mintage is 420. Most Lincoln experts agree that less than 200 exist today. BUT almost all are in the hands of collectors and very, very few are available to other collectors. If you want one you have to compete in a major auction to get one. Is this a rare coin or is this a scarce coin?
Steve

coltgus

I call a coin rare if you couldn't buy one at most major coin shows or auctions. What others might call rare I call scarce. A scarce coin is a coin that would usually be available at a major show or auction.

elwood

I would consider the Matte Proof Lincoln to be a scarce coin.

My definition of a rare coin/variety is an R-6 or higher.

Total known:

1 known - Unique
2-5 known - prohibitively rare
6-10 known - extremely rare
11-30 known - rare

Thanks to the recent bull market there are many coins which I always considered rare which now have proven to be only scarce.

Edited to add that a rare coin is one that should take you at least a year or more to find, in some instances many years to find. Another definition of rare should mean total populations and not necessarily availability. A coin may not be available but that doesn't make it rare.

coltgus

Edited to add that a rare coin is one that should take you at least a year or more to find, in some instances many years to find.

That line more clearly states what I was trying to say as a definition of rare.

mozin

The Bust Half Dollar Nut Club uses this rarity scale:

R5 RARE (31 to 80):

R5- (64 to 80)
R5 (47 to 63)
R5+ (31 to 46)



R4 VERY SCARCE (81 to 200):

R4- (161 to 200)
R4 (121 to 160)
R4+ (81 to 120)

There is a large price difference between the upper and lower end of the rarity ratings R4 & 5.

LincolnCentMan

For me, it's rare if I've been looking for it for 2+ years and dont find it.

-David

MrHalfDime

<< According to the Sheldon rarity scale, R5 and above (31-75 pieces extant) is RARE. R4 (76-200 pieces extant) is VERY SCARCE. R3 (201-500 pieces extant) is SCARCE. Most collectors of the early Federal silver coins, and also early copper, adhere to this definition. >>

Sounds real simple .... BUT....

Actually, it is quite simple. The Sheldon rarity scale to which I refered is a published and widely accepted empircal means by which to assign numbers to reflect the rarity of Large Cent die marriages. It has been adopted by many other organizations (JRCS, BHNC, etc.)and collectors to reflect the rarity of other series, primarily the early Federal issues, by die marriage. Often, to be sure, the rarity values for R1 through R4 are educated estimates, based upon the collective experience of many specialists, and extrapolated to reflect the total estimated population. However, for the R5 and better ratings, the numbers reflect actual reported and confirmed specimens, and are not estimates. It has nothing to do with mintage figures or estimates, but reflects actual counts of known examples. As the half dime census keeper for both the John Reich Collectors Society and for the Liberty Seated Collectors Club, I can attest to the accuracy of the R5 and better ratings. With this in mind, the reported rarity ratings can only fall over time as new examples are discovered, but can never increase (barring the destruction of known examples).

The complete Sheldon Rarity Scale is as follows:

R8 Unique or nearly unique 1-3 known
R7 Extremely rare 4-12 known
R6 Very Rare 13-30 known
R5 Rare 31-75 known
R4 Very Scarce 76-200 known
R3 Scarce 201-500 known
R2 Fairly common 501-1000 known
R1 Common More than 1000 known

It is important to note that the Sheldon Rarity Scale, or any other similar rarity scale, reflects only the supply side of the equation; it does not reflect the demand side. 'Availability' is a completely separate issue. Several forum members here have expressed their frustration in not being able to locate a desired coin, but the strict rarity ratings cannot be adjusted to reflect their frustration. Many times I have wanted, even desperately wanted, to acquire a 'rare' half dime die marriage but have been frustrated in not being able to locate one. The rarity scale tells me how many examples are known to exist, but they may all be tightly held in collections, and therefore not available to me. The rarity scale tells me how many exist (number of pieces extant), but not necessarily how many are on the market and therefore available.

This also works in reverse. I recall locating an unattributed R7 1795 Flowing Hair half dime in a dealer's display case at a show a few years ago. I attributed the coin for him, and made him aware of exactly how rare his coin really was. I did not need the coin myself, but chose to share the information with the dealer. He thanked me for my attribution, made a note on the holder, and adjusted the price to reflect the true rarity. I saw the dealer several months later, and he was quite upset about my attribution and comments about the rarity of his coin, which he still had in his case. He admonished "I thought you told me that half dime was an R7!? I still have it, and no one has bought it". I replied "It is an R7, with just seven pieces known, but apparently only six people collect them by die marriage and they all have one". This was a case where supply apparently exceeded demand.

messydesk

You're all wrong. Everyone knows that RARE coins come only FROM ESTATE, and require you to L@@K at them.

Steve

Stephen,
Thank you for clearly descriping the official rarity rules. I was aware of them, but I did not apply them to the thousands of varieties in each coin series. I personally don't collect non major varieties so I look at scarce or rare in relation to date and mint mark only. Your example of a rare coin with only 6 people interested in it may be true as far as how you classify rare, but I think most people associate rare with value. Hence, if the coin is considered rare in the hobby, it must be worth thousands of dollars to a collector.
What makes this hobby great is that we all have our different opinions and are able to dicuss them on these boards.
Steve

Mowgli

I understand the rarity scale and use it but to me what makes a coin "rare" and not just "scarce" is the cost of the coin. I see rare coins as expensive and scarce coins as hard to find regardless of the cost. To me a coin can be rare and scarce but it can be rare and readily available (1916 SLQ eg) or scarce but cheap (ask how many people look for years for a coin in their Dansco that is supposed to be common).

ziggy29

<< <i>The complete Sheldon Rarity Scale is as follows:

R8 Unique or nearly unique 1-3 known
R7 Extremely rare 4-12 known
R6 Very Rare 13-30 known
R5 Rare 31-75 known
R4 Very Scarce 76-200 known
R3 Scarce 201-500 known
R2 Fairly common 501-1000 known
R1 Common More than 1000 known >>

Wasn't the dividing line between R1 and R2 1250 and not 1000?

Anyway, this works pretty well for classic die varieties, but breaks down a bit at the date/mint level. Even many key dates are "common" or "fairly common" by this scale. So in some sense, we need to distinguish between populations by die variety and populations overall. A "scarce" die variety (R3 to R4) of a very common date may not draw any premium over "type coin money," whereas a key date that's R2 or even R1 overall will draw a big one.

MrHalfDime

I wholeheartedly agree that it is wonderful that we can each express differing views, and if necessary, we can agree to disagree. I am also cognizant of the differing views on the definition of rarity, which is quite likely why the OP was posted in the first place. To a die marriage collector of the early Federal silver or copper coins, rarity has one specific meaning, relating purely to the number of confirmed specimens known. Yet to another collector, perhaps of a more recent series, rarity may have a completely different connotation. This is why we have both chocolate and vanilla.

However, I must at least raise an eyebrow at the following statement:

"...to me what makes a coin "rare" and not just "scarce" is the cost of the coin"

Somehow I just cannot seem to wrap my head around that concept. By means of example, let's say that a dealer offers a specific coin to a prospective buyer for say $100. According to the above comment, we must therefore infer that the coin certainly cannot be rare, strictly by virtue of its price. But let's also assume in my hypothetical example that the dealer was not aware that the coin was, in fact, prohibitively rare (only a few examples known). Must we still assume that the coin is common by virtue of the asking price? Can we expand that hypothesis to say that if a dealer simply raises the prices of all of his coins, then they somehow all become rare? I would submit that price has absolutely nothing to do with rarity. Rarity is simply a reflection of numbers of pieces extant, regardless of demand, and certainly regardless of asking price. A 1909-S VDB Lincoln Cent is not rare; there are numerous examples available at any coin show, large or small. It may be 'expensive', but it is not rare.

Over the years, many collectors, authors and researchers have attempted to apply the Sheldon Rarity Scale to other, more modern series with limited success. Dr. Sheldon devised his scale not for entire dates of Large Cents, but for individual die marriages of Large Cents. If we try to apply his rarity scale to other series, with larger mintages, and particularly if we try to apply the scale to an entire date (and not just to individual die marriages) then its validity becomes suspect.

By means of yet another example, I moderate a forum for Liberty Seated half dimes on Gerry Fortin's Liberty Seated dime webpage (http://p104.ezboard.com/fseateddimesfrm20). On that forum, I have been asked to assign relative rarity ratings to each date/mint combination of the Liberty Seated half dimes. If I attempt to apply Sheldon's Rarity Scale to entire dates in that series, virtually all date/mint Seated half dimes would be R1. I must, therefore, use a modified rarity scale which is more applicable to a higher mintage series, and more applicable to express availability of dates rather than individual die marriages. For this application, perhaps the Q. David Bowers Universal Rarity Scale would be more appropriate.

The bottom line is that there will likely always be differing views on what is meant by rarity, depending upon what each individual collects. I simply offered one view of the relative definitions of 'rarity' versus 'scarce'.

Edited to include: Ziggy posted his comments while I was writing mine. He is absolutely correct, that perhaps a different rarity scale must be devised to express the rarity of individual date/mint examples within a series, rather than by die marriage. Perhaps the Bowers Universal Rarity Scale (URS) would provide this for larger series.

Also, Ziggy is correct about the number of examples for R1 (1250) according to the Sheldon scale. I was taking my numbers from the Logan/McCloskey book on half dimes, which for some reason differs in that number.

Nysoto

As others have said rare is more difficult to find than scarce, a rare coin may only be available from all sources a few times a year, or less. Rarity is not value, a trade token may be very rare and only worth a few bucks. Some of the darkside die varieties I am now chasing may be extremely rare, but they have not been cataloged and therefore their rarity is not known (unknown numismatic territory is very exciting!).


<< <i>However, for the R5 and better ratings, the numbers reflect actual reported and confirmed specimens, and are not estimates. >>



This is certainly the case with capped bust half dollars, but with flowing hair and draped bust halves some R5's are estimates, due to very few specialists collecting them. I would bet you could look at all auction catalogs, fixed price lists, census reports, and tribal knowledge and not come up with more than 25 confirmed seperate examples of 1795 128, 1805 107 & 110, and 1806 113, but these are all rated in the R5 range. There were many 1805 DBH's that were R6 in the 1970 Overton, in the 1990 edition they made estimates on these varieties, over reacted and dropped many to R4. The last rarity rating change corrected many of these to R5 ranges, and some are estimates that there must be more than 30 "out there". Time will tell with the true rarity of these coins, bust rarity ratings are becoming more refined but will change as new information and examples surface.

edit - mintage should never be used to estimate rarity on classic coins!

Gemineye

<< <i>It seems for the most part they can be used interchangeably (spelling?), but there does seem to be a difference... what do you think? >>


There would be quite some difference to to had in respect to two different coins.Given two coins with the same low mintage ..mind you from different years.One that is Modern and one that is Classic. The Classic would always be Rarer and not scarcer than the Modern coin.

TwoSides2aCoin

I like to think of it like this....

When it cannot be found, it's scarce.
When it is found and offered in the market, it's rare.

dac076

The Sheldon scale is nice because it's objective, rather than based on personal experience. But I think
it's surprising that a coin would be considered common at only 1000 extant. That's not many pieces.

Steve

<< <i>

However, I must at least raise an eyebrow at the following statement:

"...to me what makes a coin "rare" and not just "scarce" is the cost of the coin"

>>



May I ask who made THAT quote?


Steve

MrHalfDime

"May I ask who made THAT quote?"

Yes, it was Mowgli, immediately after your first response to my post.

RichieURich

I do understand the focus on number extant in terms of rarity. However, the context of the term is important. If you are discussing regular issue business strike Lincoln cents, the 1909-SVDB is rare. For example, if you are discussing all one cent coins as a denomination, the 1909-SVDB cent is not rare, but the 1799/8 large cent is rare.