<< <i>If people piss on my thread, I don't open an umbrella...I just walk. >>
That's much, much more serious than someone just raining on your parade, to say the least. Some posters are experiencing plain old sour grapes over your killer upgrade. Why should you care what they think anyway?
This is a thread about a rather amazing turn of events.
Amazing turn of events? You have to be kidding me! This kind of TPG grading inconsistency has been going on since the 1987-1990 bullmarket. It's one of the major reasons why it blew up. By mid-1989 it was quite clear that grading inconsistencies and crackouts were not a help to the market. The fact that this still happens today with key date saints is no revelation. There are plenty of forum members who have stories of expensive upgrades that either they lost or made. Nothing new here at all. Just a different spin on a 20 year old game and another data point.
Who's pi$$ing on your thread? You gave out some bogus information suggesting your coin "trade" was a non-taxable event. As presented it was incorrect advice. Tax information on COIN transactions is hardly OT. In fact taxes on coin transactions is probably one of the least understood topics and rarely discussed. The fact that you stated something incorrect only highlights that fact. Most just don't understand it all, present company included. That's why I included what an attorney said, not my (or SG's) interpretation of the code.
If you'd like to call Armen Vartain an amateur I'm sure it would be news to him and Coin World, which publishes his numismatic tax advice from time to time. Frankly, I'd take his opinion over anything that has been presented here on the forum to date. If you have something better please print it so you can correct of any Vartain's errors. All from the forum would welcome that. Maybe next time you should carefully re-phrase or leave your taxation opinions out of the thread if you don't want to have to defend them.
A "professional" who NEVER has to go back to review source material (ie regs and codes) because they "already know it all" certainly has no need for anyone else. Imagine a lawyer or doctor who never went back to review source material before representing you in court or commencing surgery.
Jay, Lately everything I touch has gone about as far south as it can go--fortunately I got out of risky things long ago. Seeing your hot streak reminds me that my "luck" will eventually change too. Some will always be incapable of appreciate your good "luck". And I think "luck" is a result of your proper preparation meeting opportunity, not pure chance.
Send a copy to the Feds. They can read this, comment on it or publish it.
You certainly underestimate old Sainty, rr. You should know better.
You make assumptions without knowing all the facts, and that's because I am not about to disclose every aspect of my coin collecting or transactions. I am a collector who does as much DD as anyone you will meet.
I find this tack to be sour. It's irrelevant to the thread and condescending. You aren't educating me; I've been in the securities business for close to 30 years and I don't have to LOOK anything up. I already know the laws regarding taxes on all types of collectables. It's clear who the irritant here really is.
Obviously old Sainty doesn't like it when he can't bully the forum members around to his "know-it-all", I've been around the securities and collectables business for 30 yrs, point of view. But if you're wrong, you're wrong. Get over it.
In any event the fact that SG removed the original post entirely certainly speaks volumes about what he probably really thinks. Guess I can't forward his original statement on like-kind-exchange taxable advice it to the FED's now.
If you don't want to play nice in my sandbox, I'm taking it away! And if it's raining out............ You can stand under my umbrella, brella, brella, brella, eh, eh, eh, eh...
I liked it better when Sainty said "I am neither Saint nor guru." Because now he's rather full of himself.
EBT, if you're relying on investment advice from SG, myself, or Iwog you are already way beyond hope. Strange that we didn't hear from Iwog one time during this past run-up in the metals and the unwinding of the class 3 derivatives.
However, I have to disagree with your dismissal of the idea that this is not an example of gradeflation but was the result of your expert grading skills in the field of high grade saints.
You said yourself that you felt it had a 50-50 shot at upgrading. That doesn't sound like a lock 6 to me. It sounds more like a PQ 65.
You just played the game, many play, and won.
It has nothing to do with the true merit of the coin or a numismatic discussion of grading standards and a coins actual condition. I'm not slamming the coin, it's fabulous!!! I just think that if you examine the coin closely there are to many hits on the obverse to justify a 66. I easily counted 30 hits. I know, I know, you have to look at the luster too. I think that with current grading standards relying more heavily on the amount of luster and less on the number of contact marks, this is one of the major causes of why, we now see, what many would consider to be overgraded coins.
In the past most have graded coins by strike, luster and contact marks. With more emphasis being placed on the number of contact marks and less on luster. But now with more emphasis on luster, what many consider as gradflation is just a matter of a shift in the weight one places on the criteria we use when considering a coins grade.
Like I said. Nice Score!!
It's what many dream of!!!
Unfortunately it is another example of why the crack out game will continue to be played. There is just to much money to be made from one little number on a piece of plastic.
Elwood, this isn't personal but I'm so sick of this overgraded coin talk.
Look....these coins her are and always will be 66's. You count 30 hits? With a coin blown up to the size of a Whopperâ?? maybe you do. You can't comment on the grade unless you SEE the coins.
When David Akers talks of a 50/50 shot, he means it's even odds...as do I. If it's a 20% that's 1 in 5. So 50/50 is pretty strong odds. If a horse was paying 2:1 you'd think it was almost a sure winner?
I know Saints. I know grading. Maybe it kills some people to believe that a sharp eye can find these coins, but I know a half dozen eagle eyes that do it all the time...except when you're a collector you're not called a crackout artist. You're just good.
I have submitted as many high end Saints as any collector over the last 5 years...and I assure you, they are TOUGH AS NAILS!! I have coins that would be a grade higher if they were common dates. People here have seen them....Stone, bidask, Mike Printz, TDN, IGWT, JohnAcac, and others. I hear it all the time..."geez, that should be a 66 not a 65". I don't priovoke it.....I hear it. And I see it.
Laura still lives here. Gradeflation is a small issue, not a cancer. Especially with better coins. I know.
I guess my post concentrated more on the grading aspect (gradeflation) of the industry when I should have been talking about the upgrade and plastic game.
It's still the same coin but now it is worth $50K more. It's a silly game when an opinion given on one particular day can increase the value of something that dramatically. It's still the same coin. Now if some historical information had been unearthed that linked this particular coin to a historical event or person, adding great value to it, I would feel differently.
To me, the upgrade game has tainted the hobby and derailed it from what it should really be about. Enjoying the coins, and not the numbers or the spreads.
I'm not refering you or your good fortune but am using this as an example of what I see as something wrong with the hobby.
However it is a nice addition to your piggy bank, isn't it?
Now let's look at the conundrum we have here and it's the last time I'll go into this.
The TPGs are perhaps the single most important reason that the coin biz/hobby has gotten so big and so much broader. The benefits of having a "treasury" that grades and guarantees your coins is so revolutionary that it's literally brought billions of dollars inthe market that never would have joined. The grading is NOT scientific. It can't be. A computer can't judge aesthetics. It's not just the technical qualities of the coin that count. There are so many examples of this and we all know some.
Now, we have the argument that grading is inconsistent. How inconsistent? I know it's been blathered and lathered to death recently, but I still say that better, more expensive coins have NEVER been easy upgrades. They are HARDER. Have standards changed in the last 20 years? Yep. Everyone knows that. MAYBE it's because as the TPGs saw more and more coins, by the hundreds of thousands, they realized that the original standard was too strict. That would be a reasonable evolution. That doesn't infer that they drop standards drastically, but one could understand a half-point. We've all seen old holders and marvelled at the coin/grade...and held our breath as we bid on them, hoping we were the only one to see it. What are we hoping for? **BING** An upgrade, according to reasonable standards.
This is a game in some sense. We all want to buy a buck for 60 cents. It's the American way. But to say that the system is broken, corrupt or patronizing is a gross distorted view of things. I'm NOT saying that you said that.
I agree with you 100% that it's the COIN that counts. If it didn't I'd have no passion for this. It would be like trading stocks, which I have enough of. I LOVE my coins and I will pay big premiums for coins that look undergraded (or strong for the grade as a flip-side term) and never care if I get an upgrade. I do VERY little in submissions. I probably sent in 7 or 8 coins all year. I really don't play the game. I will however, resubmit a coin a few times if I believe it's undergraded. But in the long run I know that a PQ coin will sell for PQ money.
All except for ONE coin. My 1909 MS65 at Charlotte that went unsold.
Comments
Is the punch line that the other one is a 67 now?
<< <i>I wish I had your kind of tax problem SG.
I have NO tax problem. I have hip-pocket tax amateur advice problems.
And that's the end of this thread.
If people piss on my thread, I don't open an umbrella...I just walk.
<< <i>If people piss on my thread, I don't open an umbrella...I just walk. >>
That's much, much more serious than someone just raining on your parade, to say the least.
Some posters are experiencing plain old sour grapes over your killer upgrade. Why should you care what they think anyway?
Amazing turn of events? You have to be kidding me! This kind of TPG grading inconsistency has been going on since the 1987-1990 bullmarket. It's one of the major reasons why it blew up. By mid-1989 it was quite clear that grading inconsistencies and crackouts were not a help to the market. The fact that this still happens today with key date saints is no revelation. There are plenty of forum members who have stories of expensive upgrades that either they lost or made. Nothing new here at all. Just a different spin on a 20 year old game and another data point.
Who's pi$$ing on your thread? You gave out some bogus information suggesting your coin "trade" was a non-taxable event.
As presented it was incorrect advice. Tax information on COIN transactions is hardly OT. In fact taxes on coin transactions is probably one of the least understood topics and rarely discussed.
The fact that you stated something incorrect only highlights that fact. Most just don't understand it all, present company included. That's why I included what an attorney said, not my (or SG's) interpretation of the code.
If you'd like to call Armen Vartain an amateur I'm sure it would be news to him and Coin World, which publishes his numismatic tax advice from time to time. Frankly, I'd take his opinion over anything that has been presented here on the forum to date. If you have something better please print it so you can correct of any Vartain's errors. All from the forum would welcome that. Maybe next time you should carefully re-phrase or leave your taxation opinions out of the thread if you don't want to have to defend them.
A "professional" who NEVER has to go back to review source material (ie regs and codes) because they "already know it all" certainly has no need for anyone else. Imagine a lawyer or doctor who never went back to review source material before representing you in court or commencing surgery.
roadrunner
You stink this board up.
Just because you "sheltered" gains makes you think you're an expert. You're an irritant.
Lately everything I touch has gone about as far south as it can go--fortunately I got out of risky things long ago. Seeing your hot streak reminds me that my "luck" will eventually change too. Some will always be incapable of appreciate your good "luck". And I think "luck" is a result of your proper preparation meeting opportunity, not pure chance.
Cool stories.
--jerry
<< <i>Cool - I derailed a thread without even trying!
It's an art, not a science.
You certainly underestimate old Sainty, rr. You should know better.
You make assumptions without knowing all the facts, and that's because I am not about to disclose every aspect of my coin collecting or transactions. I am a collector who does as much DD as anyone you will meet.
I find this tack to be sour. It's irrelevant to the thread and condescending. You aren't educating me; I've been in the securities business for close to 30 years and I don't have to LOOK anything up. I already know the laws regarding taxes on all types of collectables. It's clear who the irritant here really is.
Obviously old Sainty doesn't like it when he can't bully the forum members around to his "know-it-all", I've been around the securities and collectables business for 30 yrs, point of view. But if you're wrong, you're wrong. Get over it.
In any event the fact that SG removed the original post entirely certainly speaks volumes about what he probably really thinks. Guess I can't forward his original statement on like-kind-exchange taxable advice it to the FED's now.
If you don't want to play nice in my sandbox, I'm taking it away!
And if it's raining out............
You can stand under my umbrella, brella, brella, brella, eh, eh, eh, eh...
I liked it better when Sainty said "I am neither Saint nor guru."
Because now he's rather full of himself.
roadrunner
Have a nice day.
roadrunner
<< <i>Strange that we didn't hear from Iwog one time during this past run-up in the metals and the unwinding of the class 3 derivatives.
>>
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
(I'd write, "thank God for small favors", but I know iwog would object.)
Saint...CONGRATS on your score!!!
However, I have to disagree with your dismissal of the idea that this is not an example of gradeflation but was the result of your expert grading skills in the field of high grade saints.
You said yourself that you felt it had a 50-50 shot at upgrading. That doesn't sound like a lock 6 to me. It sounds more like a PQ 65.
You just played the game, many play, and won.
It has nothing to do with the true merit of the coin or a numismatic discussion of grading standards and a coins actual condition. I'm not slamming the coin, it's fabulous!!! I just think that if you examine the coin closely there are to many hits on the obverse to justify a 66. I easily counted 30 hits. I know, I know, you have to look at the luster too. I think that with current grading standards relying more heavily on the amount of luster and less on the number of contact marks, this is one of the major causes of why, we now see, what many would consider to be overgraded coins.
In the past most have graded coins by strike, luster and contact marks. With more emphasis being placed on the number of contact marks and less on luster. But now with more emphasis on luster, what many consider as gradflation is just a matter of a shift in the weight one places on the criteria we use when considering a coins grade.
Like I said. Nice Score!!
It's what many dream of!!!
Unfortunately it is another example of why the crack out game will continue to be played. There is just to much money to be made from one little number on a piece of plastic.
Look....these coins her are and always will be 66's. You count 30 hits? With a coin blown up to the size of a Whopperâ?? maybe you do. You can't comment on the grade unless you SEE the coins.
When David Akers talks of a 50/50 shot, he means it's even odds...as do I. If it's a 20% that's 1 in 5. So 50/50 is pretty strong odds. If a horse was paying 2:1 you'd think it was almost a sure winner?
I know Saints. I know grading. Maybe it kills some people to believe that a sharp eye can find these coins, but I know a half dozen eagle eyes that do it all the time...except when you're a collector you're not called a crackout artist. You're just good.
I have submitted as many high end Saints as any collector over the last 5 years...and I assure you, they are TOUGH AS NAILS!! I have coins that would be a grade higher if they were common dates. People here have seen them....Stone, bidask, Mike Printz, TDN, IGWT, JohnAcac
Laura still lives here. Gradeflation is a small issue, not a cancer. Especially with better coins. I know.
Saint
I congratulate you and your eye for Saints.
I guess my post concentrated more on the grading aspect (gradeflation) of the industry when I should have been talking about the upgrade and plastic game.
It's still the same coin but now it is worth $50K more. It's a silly game when an opinion given on one particular day can increase the value of something that dramatically. It's still the same coin. Now if some historical information had been unearthed that linked this particular coin to a historical event or person, adding great value to it, I would feel differently.
To me, the upgrade game has tainted the hobby and derailed it from what it should really be about. Enjoying the coins, and not the numbers or the spreads.
I'm not refering you or your good fortune but am using this as an example of what I see as something wrong with the hobby.
However it is a nice addition to your piggy bank, isn't it?
Now let's look at the conundrum we have here and it's the last time I'll go into this.
The TPGs are perhaps the single most important reason that the coin biz/hobby has gotten so big and so much broader. The benefits of having a "treasury" that grades and guarantees your coins is so revolutionary that it's literally brought billions of dollars inthe market that never would have joined. The grading is NOT scientific. It can't be. A computer can't judge aesthetics. It's not just the technical qualities of the coin that count. There are so many examples of this and we all know some.
Now, we have the argument that grading is inconsistent. How inconsistent? I know it's been blathered and lathered to death recently, but I still say that better, more expensive coins have NEVER been easy upgrades. They are HARDER. Have standards changed in the last 20 years? Yep. Everyone knows that. MAYBE it's because as the TPGs saw more and more coins, by the hundreds of thousands, they realized that the original standard was too strict. That would be a reasonable evolution. That doesn't infer that they drop standards drastically, but one could understand a half-point. We've all seen old holders and marvelled at the coin/grade...and held our breath as we bid on them, hoping we were the only one to see it.
This is a game in some sense. We all want to buy a buck for 60 cents. It's the American way. But to say that the system is broken, corrupt or patronizing is a gross distorted view of things. I'm NOT saying that you said that.
I agree with you 100% that it's the COIN that counts. If it didn't I'd have no passion for this. It would be like trading stocks, which I have enough of. I LOVE my coins and I will pay big premiums for coins that look undergraded (or strong for the grade as a flip-side term) and never care if I get an upgrade. I do VERY little in submissions. I probably sent in 7 or 8 coins all year. I really don't play the game. I will however, resubmit a coin a few times if I believe it's undergraded. But in the long run I know that a PQ coin will sell for PQ money.
All except for ONE coin. My 1909 MS65 at Charlotte that went unsold.
<< <i>The TPGs are perhaps the single most important reason that the coin biz/hobby has gotten so big and so much broader. >>
No, I think you have the Statehood Quarters to thank for that!
<< <i>Think Dr. Seuss.... >>
I heard you like green eggs and ham!!!
i just pray you are not this high maintenance off the boards
<< <i>I heard you like green eggs and ham!!! >>
And Dunkin' Donuts! Me too! mmmmmmmmm
<< <i>I am a collector who does as much DD as anyone you will meet. >>
Lincoln set Colorless Set
so, who can whizz the farthest this time?
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>Think Dr. Seuss.... >>
LOL!!