Mercy Bid vs. Safety Bid vs. Shilling

CarlWohlforth

Hey if a forum member advertises a coin on the B/S/T forum or sends me an email or PM saying he is selling something I might just get the bidding started to show interest. I do that hoping it will garner interest for that coin so he gets a better price. I never expect to win that kind of bid because I am bidding low. Sometimes I want to accumulate gold or type coins or cameo proof Jeffersons or something and I will bid higher, still not expecting to win, but winning is in the realm of possibility. Anyway I always would love to consummate the deal but it almost never happens. I have clients and friends who frequently bid on my stuff - I assume they have the same attitude. To me this it NOT shilling. What say you?

doh

It is shill bidding by eBay standards. You can do whatever you want as long as you can sleep at night....but what you're doing is shill bidding.

LeeG

If the coin ship's and money is sent, no matter the price, it's not shill bidding.

pcgs69

I believe according to ebay rules, your friends can bid on your auctions, as long as they are genuinely (spelling?) interested in buying it at their entered bid.

Frankcoins

<< <i>Hey if a forum member advertises a coin on the B/S/T forum or sends me an email or PM saying he is selling something I might just get the bidding started to show interest. I do that hoping it will garner interest for that coin so he gets a better price. I never expect to win that kind of bid because I am bidding low. Sometimes I want to accumulate gold or type coins or cameo proof Jeffersons or something and I will bid higher, still not expecting to win, but winning is in the realm of possibility. Anyway I always would love to consummate the deal but it almost never happens. I have clients and friends who frequently bid on my stuff - I assume they have the same attitude. To me this it NOT shilling. What say you? >>



As long as your friend follows through if he wins with his bid, it's a bonafide bid. A shill bid, by definition, is a phony bid.

Frankcoins

As long as your friend follows through if he wins with his bid, it's a bonafide bid. A shill bid, by definition, is a phony bid.

doh

<< <i>Anyway I always would love to consummate the deal but it almost never happens >>


Based on that, it's shill bidding.

Russ

I bid low in Marty's auctions quite frequently. Of course I'm sniping and trying to rip him.

Russ, NCNE

Frankcoins

<< <i>

<< <i>Anyway I always would love to consummate the deal but it almost never happens >>


Based on that, it's shill bidding. >>



So if you place a lot of lowball bids, and win something only once in a while, you are shill bidding? Please explain.

CarlWohlforth

doh:

What I mean is if you advertise on the B/S/T that you have listed a 1917 Type 1 SLQ in an PCGS MS 65 holder on eBay starting at 99 cents with no reserve I will go and look. If there are no bids yet I will bid maybe $475 or something. Hey I would be very happy to win that coin and you would hate to sell at that price. I'm not actually looking for one but I knwo the value of that coin...

doh

If you're bidding on a coin that is being sold by a friend with no intention of buying that coin then yes, that is shill bidding. If you hadn't have bid, I could have come along and gotten it for that price...but since you bid your "lowball" bid then I have to pay more. So, you artificially raised the price. Now, if you want to buy the coin that's another story, but if you're bidding just to be "friendly" you're a shill bidder. Simple as that.

Broadstruck

I may have done the Mercy Bid a 2 times lately just to knock off a BIN that's too low... not sure if that makes me a bad person, but both sellers earned $150+ on both auctions. I like to think of it as a Robin Hood Bid.

roadrunner

doh, because you didn't come along in time and bid at that earlier advantageous price, that's your fault, not the seller's nor the friend of the seller. If you want to bid one increment higher, that's your
choice. If you don't want to, then I guess you only wanted the lot at a price you could rip it at as well. So what's the difference?

roadrunner

CarlWohlforth

The bids are real. All bidders would love to buy the coin at the bid price. I know if I really *must* own the coin I won't show my hand until the final few seconds and then put in my max bid. However I will bottom fish. I do that with stocks, coins and real estate. If you list a coin I like but don't need I might just bid early. If my low bid scares away all snipers and I end up with the coin I will happily pay. You will ship me the coin, happy or not... That is not artificially inflating the price IMHO.

doh

I have an idea: ask eBay. Tell them exactly what you posted and see what they say....
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for trying to get around the rules, but the original post asked if what he was doing was shill bidding, I gave my opinion. End of story.

grabba

I'm bidding on a coin Russ has right now. It is a quarter and I don't even collect them but that one sure is a nice one. Don't know if I will get it but would love to have it.

I know what it is worth so I put a bid in accordingly (maybe a little low). Usually I wait and snipe things but I might just snipe at the end if I get outbid.

commoncents05

It's only shill bidding if you don't pay, IMO.

-Paul

NumisOxide

<< <i>It's only shill bidding if you don't pay, IMO.

-Paul >>


That's sort of how I see it.

grabba

<< <i>It's only shill bidding if you don't pay, IMO.

-Paul >>



I sort of agree with that also.

Silverstate

A bid if there is money behind it is a bid.

I don't care If you don't really want it or not.

I bid on some junk silver below melt. Do I care If I win??
Not very much. If I win... BONUS!

So, If it's my Friends auction, that in and of itself does not make it a shill bid.


IF, We agreed that I don't want it....If I should win at my entered bid. Then that is Shill Bidding.

I personally like sniper bidding. If I win at my price, that make the day that much better.

Griv

Absolutely shill. Oh, it was for a good reason I wounded that puppy. Please stop or at least get help.

djdilliodon

<< <i>

<< <i>It's only shill bidding if you don't pay, IMO.

-Paul >>



I sort of agree with that also. >>



ditto and i would like to add, its only shill bidding if you get caught

ModernCrapNut

If someone here mentions a coin they have on ebay that I would like to have but haven't actively been searching for, I"ll put a lowball bid on it. If I would win, I have every intention of paying for the coin. If not, it's possibly helped get some attention for the item.

Texast

I can just see the look on the face of your cellmate (guy named Bubba) when he finds out your doing a stretch for shill bidding on Ebay

notwilight

I sometimes point out my auctions that are low to repeat customers that I've developed a friendly relationship with. I always remind them that I'm showing them this to bid on only if they are interested, not asking for a "favor". That's not shilling. --Jerry

Bubblehead

I've picked up some real nice coins, real cheap. Call it whatever!

pharmer

Sort of the victimless crime conundrum. Or not. Well, it's not necessary, but we do it, with good intentions. I think it's a shill bid of sorts when you say "just to get it started." Of course you would follow through if you won, but you didn't bid meaning to win. Intent is what it comes down to. If you do it to drive up the price, that's a shill bid. Now wait, if you do it just to get it started, you've actually driven up the bid. This is hard. I think if it's hard, you probably shouldn't do it. If it feels wrong or you can't decide if it's wrong, you don't do it. My head hurts.

beep

If you're bidding on an item of value and numismatic worth to you then, YES no shill. Otherwise....

Silverstate

I agree with Jerry.

If someone says they have some nice new stuff on eBay.

I have bid some numbers without even a request.

Sure. I will buy Gold for $100 back of melt all day long.

MS70 or PR70 for slabbing fees.

It's just bidding.

Most auctions on eBay seek the true level of what items are worth.

I have started things off because I know some of you have stuff on eBay all of the time.

It's just a bid.. Since I will pay for what I win at my bid price.
That is not shilling.

Plain and simple.

Many of us have thrown lots of bids around on eBay.
If, I win Cheap great. Most get knocked out with those snipers guys!



A bid is just a bid.

If I do not place the absolute highest bid on there, does not make it a shill bid.

=================================================================
eBay's policy on Shill Bidding is very simple:

Shill Bidding is bidding that artificially increases an item's price or apparent desirability,
or bidding by individuals with a level of access to the seller's item information not available to the general Community.
Shill Bidding is prohibited on eBay.
=================================================================

So If I bid $700 per oz on gold coins, does this artificially increase the value of the item - NO!

And If I don't have access to the sellers account ect, that the average joe can't get at.

Still not Shilling.

So I guess we can analyze the word "artificially" a bit more.

Of course at the end of the day. We all have to feel we are playing fair.
And I can see we have a wide range of opinions on this subject.


I guess If I don't like the price, I move on to the next auction or submit a Best offer.
That is one thing that eBay added that I really like.

Griv

No harm there but if you are in cahoots with another seller to raise their bid without the 100% motive of buying it then you are a criminal and we will find you and drag your battered half naked remains before a judge that will surely sentence you to some chain gang in Mississippi for 30 years. Sorry, but I think it is true.

Deadhorse

If you toss out a lowball bid to start an auction, yet you would be very happy to actually get the item at that price and have every intention of paying, it's not shilling.

I've done it for board members around here and they have no idea who I am.

A shill bidder is working with the seller, they are conspiring. If there is at least one or more interested buyers, the shill is artificiallly raising the price and has no intention of actually paying. Real shillers may end up placing several small incremental bids as the auction draws to a close.

There's a great deal of difference in doing that and simply throwing out a lowball bid to start the auction.

I've lowballed many junk silver bids and usually the eBayers will pay too much and I'm not a buyer at those levels. Sometimes the seller lists it under the wrong category and I've won a few. Of course I'm happy to pay. Neither of those is a shill bid, yet both are the same type of bid.

Some folks don't seem to know what a real shill is. Split hairs all you want, but placing only one bid on an item you'd be happy to purchase at your bid is not shilling, regardless of the reason you placed that bid.

lordmarcovan

To me, if the bidder is willing to honor his bid, it is not shill bidding, even if it is done among friends, and the bidder is not really "playing for keeps" but is just trying to boost his friend's auction. Yes, I suppose it is technically shill bidding, but if the bidder ends up buying the coin in the end, and thereby honoring his bid, who's to say anything's wrong?

ziggy29

This is one of those questions/issues that comes up like whack-a-mole every few weeks.

My belief is that it is NOT shilling as long as *all* of the following are true:

(1) The bidder fully intends to honor the bid on the unlikely chance that they win;
(2) The bidder fully expects the buyer to perform in the case of winning with a lowball bid;
(3) The seller actually delivers despite the low closing bid;
(4) There is no established agreement between buyer and seller and no "quid pro quo" involved, either beforehand or after the item in question is sold.

If all of those are true, then it's not shilling.

dimples

I call it early shilling with the intent to show greater demand than there is for the object.

Late shilling is trying to suck someone into paying more than the real demand is for said object.


Both are technically shilling, but the second is much more damaging to the buyer.


Dan

Silverstate

<< <i>No harm there but if you are in cahoots with another seller to raise their bid without the 100% motive of buying it then you are a criminal and we will find you and drag your battered half naked remains before a judge that will surely sentence you to some chain gang in Mississippi for 30 years. Sorry, but I think it is true. >>



Griv,

I'll keep this in the back of my mind as I aimlessly bid on things on eBay!

BlindedByEgo

<< <i>I bid low in Marty's auctions quite frequently. Of course I'm sniping and trying to rip him.

Russ, NCNE >>



I notice that often the reverse is tried.

It is all based on intent... Heh... Try proving intent after the fact.