CLASSIC MADNESS!!!!?
wondercoin
Posts: 16,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
There are always plenty of folks around here ready to pounce on the madness of a collector paying an "outrageous price" for a "modern" coin. What often gets "lost in the translation" is the BEATING COLLECTORS ARE (POSSIBLY) SUFFERING RIGHT NOW ON CLASSIC COINS. OR, ARE THEY? You can be the judge of that. But, consider these approximate prices realized at the FUN auction:
1. PCGS-MS66 Cleveland, which blue sheets at $405. Price realized at FUN approx. $12,000.00!!!!!!!! PCGS-MS67 sheets at $2,600!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2. PCGS-MS65 Hawaiian, which blue sheets at $3,335. Price realized at FUN approx. $23,000.00!!!!!! CAN THIS BE RIGHT?????? PCGS-MS66 sheet at $6,000 and PCGS-MS67 (only 1 even exists in this grade is $15,000)!!!!!!!!
Now, what would you rather have: a pop -1- or -2- 1957 Franklin in PCGS-PR69DCAM, a PCGS-MS65 Hawaiian pop 276 with around 39 higher or a "poke in the eye with a sharp stick but you get to keep your $20,000 cash. Which one?
Wondercoin.
1. PCGS-MS66 Cleveland, which blue sheets at $405. Price realized at FUN approx. $12,000.00!!!!!!!! PCGS-MS67 sheets at $2,600!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2. PCGS-MS65 Hawaiian, which blue sheets at $3,335. Price realized at FUN approx. $23,000.00!!!!!! CAN THIS BE RIGHT?????? PCGS-MS66 sheet at $6,000 and PCGS-MS67 (only 1 even exists in this grade is $15,000)!!!!!!!!
Now, what would you rather have: a pop -1- or -2- 1957 Franklin in PCGS-PR69DCAM, a PCGS-MS65 Hawaiian pop 276 with around 39 higher or a "poke in the eye with a sharp stick but you get to keep your $20,000 cash. Which one?
Wondercoin. Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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Also, talk to Laura @ Legend concerning #2. Also i thought it was a 66
Re-elect Bush in 2004... Dont let the Socialists brainwash you.
Bush 2004
Jeb 2008
KK 2016
Unlike classic coins, with most modern issues, toning is seldomly a factor in determining price, it's usually the pop. figures, registry hype, etc.
Dragon
I still wouldn't go so far as saying that makes the high prices of condition rarity moderns look any better though. Tell you what however, I have a couple of Commems that are screaming at me because they want to go up for auction at Heritage. I think I'll manage to resist though.
Still, if $20,000+ is fine with everyone for an MS65 HA because it has color, then I assume $30,000 is fine with everyone too. And, $40,000 and $50,000 and $1,000,000 for really incredible color. Any price is fine for a color coin-right? At what price level would Dragon or dbldie55 say: My God these Classic prices are just plain stupid!! I guess $12,000 for a $400 bid Cleveland isn't even close to the "breaking point". Is there a rediculous price for "color"? And, what if that 69DCAM Franklin had the most incredible deep cameo contrast imagineable? Why is no one suggesting that Franklin coin could have been as incredible as the finest color coin? I think I get it now: IF THE CLASSIC COIN HAS GREAT COLOR WHATEVER ANYONE PAYS FOR IT IS FINE, UNLESS OF COURSE IT IS A MODERN WASH QUARTER OR ROOSEVELT DIME WITH COLOR, IN WHICH CASE THE BUYER IS A TOTAL IDIOT!
Wondercoin.
Laurie: Where were you earlier today when the $20,000 Franklin got "flamed"? Why did you not step in and point out that a modern coin like could have "a case made for it"? You only decided to "jump in" when the classics Commems were under attack. Yet, the very high bidder on that Cleveland just told me he paid an "outrageous price" for the coin; a price he did not believe he would ever have had to pay! He (the winninf bidder) was more stunned than anyone!!!
Conclusion: Laurie we are in total agreement! It is inapproriate for someone to come on these boards and "bash" a modern "arms length" coin sale just as what someone pays at auction is really no one's business. My thread was simply a "counterpoint" to the "point" being made on the other thread that the fellow who paid $20,000 for that Franklin was essentially out of his mind.
Laurie. Relax. After all, you convinced me to buy your Grant with Star in PCGS-MS67 for a boatload of money over another coin a while back. You do a great job in your specialty area!!
I do not appreciate your sarcasm and stretching an example to an extreme to serve your point. Did anyone here ever state that ANY PRICE is ok for toning or that there was in fact a breaking point for toned pieces?? I am quite sure as a dealer that you are well aware of the facts of life that beautifully toned pieces bring multiples of sheet, day in and day out, regardless of series, in good markets or bad. The fact of the matter is that your analogy was incorrect and misleading, as various pieces bring large premiums for various reasons, sometimes justified, sometimes not.
Dragon
Mitch, I guess that is what boths camps share in common: the ability to pay fiercely crazy prices for coins on the WANT list!
Now, if that MS65 Hawaiian went for $23,000.00 I can now expect to pay more for that GD06?!
peacockcoins
It is often not the case that a coin is actually worth anywhere near what a buyer and seller choose to agree upon. That 53-S FBL Franklin lost almost 50% when it resold only a few months later.
I have heard stories of beginners getting "taken to the cleaners" on a purchase of classic coins. I suspect you have heard a couple of tales yourself (let's not forget the myriad current references to old time coins now trading at 10%-20% of 1980's highs-did only coin experts buy at those high levels or did some beginners get burned?
The prices for the coins that we've been discussing are high, there is no question.
Is it good or bad?, or, Do I like it or not?
I don't like the prices going past the point that I can afford the nice coins, however, I guess the value of my current holdings are rising a little, even if they're not the "nicest toned commem ever".
Madness? no, hardly.
Anything different here, from paying a large amount for a high grade modern? no.
Modern vs. Classic, is a bogus arguement, actually lifeless, useless and wholly unnecessary.
Steve
ps, imho
Your attitude here on the board lately has been deplorable. I think most of us are big boys and girls who understand that the coin market may not be the best place to "invest" our money. I, for one, am tired of seeing your attempts at hype, convoluted logic AND YOUR DAMN CAPITAL LETTERS. Why don't you quietly go back to putting up your price lists and keep your offbeat commentary to yourself.
You may get a few neg. reactions, but I think most get the point, and rightly, "think about it" more. Thanks.
PS. A newly developed interest, AND a position in Commems? Hmmm. I think people ARE starting to "listen up" to Laura.
If you are concerned about having people express their opinions regarding your threads in a negative way then quit posting them. There are quite a few people on this board who are just "afraid" to let you know their real thoughts since they buy coins from you. When I agree with you I say so, when I don't I will exercise my priveledge to express that opinion too.
Wondercoin you find me a 97 Silver Eagle in a PCGS holder, the grade doesn't matter, that has peripheral green turning to blue to purple to red to yellow with a brilliant center, or any other 97 coin for that matter, and you will see some Modern Dog Madness!!
To start I would say that all the prices discussed seemed high to me, however I didn't see any of the coins. I do know that beautiful toned coins bring large premiums. The most beautiful toned coins I have ever seen are the Peaco*ck IKEs. A peaco*ck IKE example can easily sell for 5 to 10 times the normal price. I know I paid $500 for my 77D Peaco*ck in MS66, when regular examples were selling for $75. I also paid $450 for a 71S Peaco*ck in MS64, when you can buy a normal piece anywhere for a few dollars. The point is that these fabulous toned coins are literally one of a kind. I didn't see the Franklin, but I would have guessed the price would have reached at least $10,000. The deepest cameos (what R&I refers to as DCAM+) are almost non-existent. I have only seen one myself. If it truly is one of those rare DCAM+ pieces it is one of a kind and can deserve a very high price.
My advice is, if you don't want to pay the 10X high price don't. Chances are you might have a chance later. When a series is on fire like the commems are now, the one of a kind examples will sell at amazing premiums. However, the day will come when they will have slowed down and you can pick them up for a song. Problem is you won't want them then. Don't believe it? Then take a look at proof seated pieces. Few buy them now, and you can pick up beautifully toned cameos for almost no premium. Talk to Laura or Kathleen at Pinnacle, and they will show you some of these.
Greg
I got into ms Jeffersons. They went crazy.
I got into Washington quarters, '32 - date. They all went crazy.
I got into Kennedys. They went crazy.
I got into Roosies. They went crazy.
I am into commems. So, you're saying they'll go crazy too?
Cool.
I don't think there are differences, classic or modern. They all can go crazy.
dbldie55: Why does the thread HAVE TO advocate a position. The point is whatever you want it to be-right? Most of us are enjoying a Sunday night discussion. I have found most of the replies interesting, as Greg and others have. The "point" of this thread doesn't change based upon what I personally think of the price paid for the Franklin or the Cleveland. Remember, like you, I have not even stated what I personally believe of the Franklin price. If I thought the price was outrageous on the Franklin, what impact would that have on whether the classic Commem prices have gone "out of this world".
Well, there was one general point in my thread I guess, which Laura got right to. There are important markets right now for classic and modern coins, which collectors are pursuing equally strong right now it would appear.
peacockcoins
Re-elect Bush in 2004... Dont let the Socialists brainwash you.
Bush 2004
Jeb 2008
KK 2016
By the way, as a courtesy since there are now two Greg's on the thread could you refer to me as Greg S or Typetone or the "Ever Ponderer". That way I'll know if you are insulting me and whether I have to bust your chops.
Also, by the way, CleveGreg. Does your name imply you're from Cleveland? I grew up there myself back when the river caught on fire.
Typetone
Seriously, I think it is exciting to have a spirited discussion on the boards because it shows passion. I love to see the passion of fellow collectors. We all have certain trigger points, some defend their modern positions while others, maybe the commemoratives. The only real truth here is that both groups feel passionately for their hobby or for some, their business.
I don't believe it is "lunacy" for anyone to pay any price for a coin they feel passionately about, it is their money, who are we to judge what they do with it.
Just the Sunday night thoughts of a new collector...
MarkJude
Mark's Mattes
Mark's Cameo SMS Set
Mark's Non-Cameo SMS Set
If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say someone is trying to backdoor hype the commems he just took a position in (which I don't consider classic coinage, by the way).
Having personally watched the auction at FUN, I can state that the winning collector was willing to go even higher on the coins he liked - he was essentially doing a Pitman.
Has anyone seen it or the other that can describe these coins for us?
peacockcoins
Re-elect Bush in 2004... Dont let the Socialists brainwash you.
Bush 2004
Jeb 2008
KK 2016
I have collected coins for nearly 30 years. Only over the past roughly 4 years have I sold more coins in a given year than I have kept in my "collection". Yes, you do see the "passion". I love to collect many kinds of coins. I have a very sizeable DEEP MIRROR PROOFLIKE BUSINESS STRIKE collection from the 20th century. Coins such as a high grade 1950(s) Quarter with deeper mirrors than most any 1950 proof quarter of that year!! I am also a big fan of certain "clad" and silver modern coins, but I also see how neat it is to pursue the classic commem series right now, among other classic coins. I am personally buying classic commems right now where the opportunities present themselves and the coins are not intended for resale (at least not at the moment, but as most collectors know, most coins do get sold eventually). None of this is pertinent to the discussion of course, but I felt like addressing MarkJude.
P.S. Tradedollarnut. I can assure you I am not trying to hype my recent position in Commems. The whole position is probably equal to Laurie's total sales in but one given day of the year!!! I'll leave the analysis of that series to the resident experts.
If that is your "point", then great! "There's no place like home. There's no place like home"
disclaimer: the above reference to crazy-priced coins is only meant as a loose, generic term for any coin that sells for many, many multiples of the usual market price of otherwise like coins. it is in no way intended to be derogatory to the purchaser of the specific coins in question or a particular market segment as a whole.
Ken
Maybe it was markedly superior to all other known Franklins of that date... maybe all the 68's are "68.1" and this was a "69.9". Maybe all the 68's barely make DCAM and this one has incredibly deep crunchy frosted devices (tm) and flawless mirrors. (All total conjecture on my part, I'm not that familiar with the series and didn't see this coin.)
The point being, maybe a Franklin proof collector cared enough about those differences in the coin (after all, those differences are about all a Franklin proof collector have to care about), in the same way that those commem collectors cared about color.
Or maybe it was registry-mania, simply paying for a label where the coin was ho-hum.
Or maybe it was signed by Elvis.
Anybody know?
----
Thanks solid, edited to say "crunchy frosted devices (tm)". Now awaiting lucrative licensing offer from Rick Tomaska.
"incredibly deep crunchy frosted devices" ???
That's the first time I've seen "crunchy" used as an adjective for DCAM devices...kind of like it!!!
Ken
Wondercoin's examples may well be wonderful coins -- the new owners, however, are unlikely to recover their investment!
I agree with your assessment that the new owners might find it difficult to recover their costs. This would be especially true if the under-bidders came to their senses.
But, how would you like to be the winning bidder and then have your spouse happen to compare the invoice with a standard price list. How would you explain that you just spent, say, $23,000 for a coin that lists for $3,335? Or even $12,000 for a coin listing for $405? All I can think is that that conversation would be very interesting. (Note that this comment about the conversation between spouses also holds true for a $20,000 Franklin!)
Mark
The issue isn't about modern verse classic but the wisdom of paying outragious premiums for ANY COIN based on a one point difference in grade or in this case what one considers monster toning. Both could have very high downside risk. The risk for the grade rarity coin is the possibility of an every increasing population in the super grade. For the toned coin it could be changes in toning over the years or changes in the marketplace regarding the appeal of toned coins. If someone has a lot of what could end up being DISPOSABLE income, has weighted the downside risk and still wants to pay the 10x, 20x, 30x+ premium that of course is their prerogative. Personally I'd keep looking for a more reasonably priced alternative, especially if trying to purchase the coin ends up being a bidding war with another lunatic
Is this a new trend?
"So-long" super high prices based exclusively on the extra point, "hello" paying outragious prices regardless of the grade assigned.
Either way, Dog97 has it titled correctly. It is Sheer Madness!
peacockcoins
I was alluding to what you call eye appeal in my reference to monster toning. Either way (single grade point or monster toning) my feeling regarding paying tremendous premiums is the same. There is no coin I want so badly that I'd pay what the buyer in this case called a price that was lunacy. If a given coin in MS-66 is 20x the MS-65 coin price I'll settle for a nice MS-65. If a coin with monster toning is selling for 20x the price of coins in that particular grade I'll settle for fining a nice example in the grade and "normal" price range. But that's just me.
And, pmh1nic is absolutely right in his statement that color changes over time. In the course of 10-12 years, I have witnessed a beautifully colored coin in the first generation PCGS holder go from an incredible purple to a deeper rainbow effect (still very nice), but due to the deepness in color now, imho, the coin lost part of its chance to upgrade using PCGS' typical standards for what they like to see in the MS68 grade for this particular coin. Pmh1nic: glad you're still here