Do Mylar flips cause hairlines?

grabba

I was watching the PCGS grading video on Youtube.com and I watched how the graders removed the coins from the flips and I was shocked at how they just turned them up on end and the coin slid out.

Anyone ever notice if their coins developed hairlines after putting them in the flips and then removing them?

I also wonder how many coins have been dropped by graders while removing the coins from flips.

numisma

Saflip brand flips (like mylar) will not cause hairlines. However, that only assumes that the person handling the coin did not introduce any foreign objects into the flip when inserting the coin. Vinyl flips are the ones that have microscopic particles that do indeed cause scratches. So vinyl flips not only ruin coins by causing PVC damage, but they also have sharp particles that scratch your coins. I still cannot understand why these are manufactured and sold after what we now know.

Russ

Mine never have. But, I assume it could happen if the coin slides along the edge of the flip when inserting or removing.

Russ, NCNE

grabba

I bought the Mylar flips as recommended from the good people here and they just seem sort of stiff. It just seems they would hairline a coin if they were removed like the graders removed them.

I don't know what brand the flips were as I bought them several months ago but I followed a link everyone was agreeing to that that was indeed the flips to buy.

numisma

The flips you bought are the safest you can purchase. To make a flip soft, they use oil in the plastic. The truth is that every time you handle a coin, there's the distinct possibility that some damage could occur.

Tyler1924S

I submitted mine inside 2x3 poly bags (folded around the coins), and placed inside the flips.

pontiacinf

<< <i>I submitted mine inside 2x3 poly bags (folded around the coins), and placed inside the flips. >>



those poly bags have been responsible for spotting and haze on many a modern silver proofs I have submitted

numisma

True. The polybags are not considered safe. They say that it will cause haze on proofs, but my little minds tells me that the haze is also on MS coins, but it is not as obvious.

Tyler1924S

Mine came on a page of 10, you pull them off. No brand name stamped on it. Not as "hard" as the ones with the submission kit, but not as soft as a vinyl flip.

Coxe

No, but you can get hairlines on the flip from removing and reinserting the coin repeatedly. That's something to bear in mind when looking at coins in flips on a bourse. Sometimes the lighting makes it hard to immediately differentiate from flip hairlines and a field cleaning.

BAJJERFAN

PCGS researched and addressed this topic awhile back concluding that random hard particles embedded into the coin contact surfaces of any flip [vinyl or mylar] can scratch coins that are slid into the flips. They recommend opening the flip and dropping the coin in without touching the inner surfaces of the saflip.

BECOKA

<< <i>PCGS researched and addressed this topic awhile back concluding that random hard particles embedded into the coin contact surfaces of any flip [vinyl or mylar] can scratch coins that are slid into the flips. They recommend opening the flip and dropping the coin in without touching the inner surfaces of the saflip. >>



I was going to mention this also, they had some kind of article describing the research and how the pvc flips caused hairlines and they tested these with thousands of coins to determine if hairlines occurred and they did not.

originalisbest

The edges of saflips can indeed gouge a coin, if you're not careful. And I've never had any issues with polyethelene bags causing haze or spotting on anything other than a proof coin - and, for that matter, I've not had it happen to me with any proofs, in a relatively stable midwest environment. I suspect the California climate/handling also plays a role in the polyethelene & proofs issue.

pf70collector

To be safe submit your U.S. Mint proofs in original mint capsules. I won't put them in flips.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>

<< <i>PCGS researched and addressed this topic awhile back concluding that random hard particles embedded into the coin contact surfaces of any flip [vinyl or mylar] can scratch coins that are slid into the flips. They recommend opening the flip and dropping the coin in without touching the inner surfaces of the saflip. >>



I was going to mention this also, they had some kind of article describing the research and how the pvc flips caused hairlines and they tested these with thousands of coins to determine if hairlines occurred and they did not. >>



I believe the issue arose from submitted coins being BB'd for scratches when the submitter swore up and down the coin was scratch free when submitted. I believe that PCGS examined mostly mylar flips but the results could be readily applied to PVC flips as well.

ModernDollarNut

Heck of a good thread!

My thought is the PCGS technique is the key: holding a flip by the edges, exert enough pressure to open it a bit and let the coin slide in (or drop out). As Russ stated, the rims will protect the coin and this way even the fat part of the rim is protected.

Once folded over and creased, the flip should provide a decent almost-seal as moisture and changing temperatures are probably the greatest risk for the enclosed coins.

I use rubber bands to hold the flips in bunches when submitting. Although this might compress the flip's surfaces to some extent on the coins faces, it also tends to prevent movement of the coin within the folded, flat flip (is that poetic or what....).

I then make sure there is no movement of the banded bunches of flips in the box being shipped. Rob

Tyler1924S

<< <i>Saflip brand flips (like mylar) will not cause hairlines. However, that only assumes that the person handling the coin did not introduce any foreign objects into the flip when inserting the coin. Vinyl flips are the ones that have microscopic particles that do indeed cause scratches. So vinyl flips not only ruin coins by causing PVC damage, but they also have sharp particles that scratch your coins. I still cannot understand why these are manufactured and sold after what we now know. >>



Hard to believe that these vinyl flips are still being used in some coin shops. There's one (I used to frequent in CA.) where I would ask to see the boxes now and then to cherrypick new arrivals. Over the course of 3-4 years, I saw the effects of PVC on a box of Lincoln Cents (all in vinyl flips). One day I looked in the box, and it was like a switch had been flipped. Green on the coins, sticky & wet looking, stuck to the flips, etc. Once it was this obvious, it seemed to spread like a fungus. Occasionally, I'll run across a shop where Morgans are displayed in these on the trays (and we've probably all seen the film they can cause on those).

numisma

I believe that PCGS examined mostly mylar flips but the results could be readily applied to PVC flips as well.

No. The problem was with PVC flips. The mylar flips had much fewer particles than the PVC. When putting a coin in any holder, one should always be as careful as possible. This includes using compressed air to remove any debris in a 2X2 staple flip.

And for Tyler, the kind that you have to tear off of a sheet are NOT the good holders. Those are better than the vinyl flips, but, after exhaustive searching over the years, I have concluded that the Saflip brand 2X2 holders are the best on the market.

here's the original article by PCGS

BAJJERFAN

Does PCGS even accept coins in PVC flips or do they return them ungraded?

Tyler1924S

<< <i>And for Tyler, the kind that you have to tear off of a sheet are NOT the good holders. Those are better than the vinyl flips, but, after exhaustive searching over the years, I have concluded that the Saflip brand 2X2 holders are the best on the market.

here's the original article by PCGS >>



Thanks for the info, numisma! I see they have the Saflip at Brent Krueger.

numisma

Hard to believe that these vinyl flips are still being used in some coin shops.

I see dealers using them all of the time. I once asked a well known dealer why he continued to use vinyl flips. His answer was swift and direct: "they are cheap". I responded by reminding him that the $0.08/flip that he was saving was nothing compared to the money he was loosing on damaged coins or the chemicals and time needed to remedy the situation. His response to that was: "that's why I sell my coins very quickly....don't have to worry about it". Eight cents per flip savings............ I will never understand this logic.

Myqqy

I see dealers using them all of the time. I once asked a well known dealer why he continued to use vinyl flips. His answer was swift and direct: "they are cheap". I responded by reminding him that the $0.08/flip that he was saving was nothing compared to the money he was loosing on damaged coins or the chemicals and time needed to remedy the situation. His response to that was: "that's why I sell my coins very quickly....don't have to worry about it". Eight cents per flip savings............ I will never understand this logic.

Sounds like a selfish a-hole who doesn't care about coins, just about adding whatever he can to his bottom line...

numisma

Sounds like a selfish a-hole who doesn't care about coins, just about adding whatever he can to his bottom line...

You just called a lot of dealers "a-hole", but I totally agree with you.

MoneyLA

I recall a couple of years ago that PCGS recommended that submissions of proofs should be made in soft flips instead of the hard flips that PCGS provides to prevent possible scratching and damage.

cheers, Alan Mendelson
www.BestDealsTVshow.com

notwilight

<< <i>...and a field cleaning. >>

sounds like something a soldier does before a meal or one does to a deer after a good shot.--Jerry

dorancoins

I never use PVC flips nor do I ever use flips which the material used is questionable. All flips that I use are Saflips, made by E&T Kointainer. I did sell them when I had my supplies section of my website (www.dorancoins.com) up. I plan to sell supplies again, this time with a separate website (www.doransupplies.com), which will be up and running hopefully before the end of this month in time for the holiday season.

Now, I use Saflips all the time and I have never seen any of my coins have hairlines. But you want to make sure that the coin is not rattling around loosely in the flip. I seal them with with a impulse sealer - solves the problem.

jmski52

I use rubber bands to hold the flips in bunches when submitting. Although this might compress the flip's surfaces to some extent on the coins faces, it also tends to prevent movement of the coin within the folded, flat flip (is that poetic or what....).

I then make sure there is no movement of the banded bunches of flips in the box being shipped. Rob

I wouldn't use rubber bands in my coin storage or submittal materials, but that's just me.

BAJJERFAN

Actually the correct answer to the posted question is no. It is the adventitious grit that sometimes finds its way into the flip that causes the hairline scratches.

numisma

<< <i>Actually the correct answer to the posted question is no. It is the adventitious grit that sometimes finds its way into the flip that causes the hairline scratches. >>



Correct. I made a similar point in my first post above. When you are using a brand new Saflip, the surfaces are so smooth that surface tension seals the pocket and you have to carefully open it before delicately inserting the coin. This is the safest holder on the market. Never use a used flip. Period. And, as Dorancoins stated, an impulse sealer keeps the smaller coins from moving in the holder.