The Demise of the West Coast Coin Shows—Can They Be Saved
CalGold
Posts: 2,608 ✭✭
After returning from the Santa Clara show on Saturday, I posted a thread bemoaning the absence of many out of town dealers who had left after the Friday session. Don Willis replied that several dealers had simply cancelled plans to attend due to declining attendance over the past few years, while others who had attended left early due to poor collector turn out on Thursday and Friday/
A number of dealers have also previously expressed their disappointment about declining collector turnout at the Long Beach show, and some have already announced that they will not be taking a table at the next show.
While the Baltimore and FUN shows seem to be well attended, and there was enthusiasm expressed for the first NY area Coin Fest, the West Coast shows appear headed for extinction. Can they be saved?
My first thought is that the entire concept of holding a show on weekdays needs to be reconsidered. Most collectors simply cannot play hooky from work or from their professional practices or cannot shutter their businesses to attend a coin show. It can be hard enough for many of us to get away from the office even on a Saturday. I went to the Santa Clara show in the morning and worked in the afternoon, and I am confident that I am far from alone in that regard.
So instead of forcing dealers to come to town for Thursday and Friday sessions, why not limit the show to Friday, including evening hours, and Saturday, or only Saturday and Sunday. By the same token, the auctions need to adjust to working schedules as well. It is ridiculous to hold lot viewings during weekday business hours. Hold the lot viewing sessions in the evenings instead. The auction houses have made it is easy to bid on line, but if you can’t see the coins first what good is it?
CG
A number of dealers have also previously expressed their disappointment about declining collector turnout at the Long Beach show, and some have already announced that they will not be taking a table at the next show.
While the Baltimore and FUN shows seem to be well attended, and there was enthusiasm expressed for the first NY area Coin Fest, the West Coast shows appear headed for extinction. Can they be saved?
My first thought is that the entire concept of holding a show on weekdays needs to be reconsidered. Most collectors simply cannot play hooky from work or from their professional practices or cannot shutter their businesses to attend a coin show. It can be hard enough for many of us to get away from the office even on a Saturday. I went to the Santa Clara show in the morning and worked in the afternoon, and I am confident that I am far from alone in that regard.
So instead of forcing dealers to come to town for Thursday and Friday sessions, why not limit the show to Friday, including evening hours, and Saturday, or only Saturday and Sunday. By the same token, the auctions need to adjust to working schedules as well. It is ridiculous to hold lot viewings during weekday business hours. Hold the lot viewing sessions in the evenings instead. The auction houses have made it is easy to bid on line, but if you can’t see the coins first what good is it?
CG
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Comments
<< <i>My first thought is that the entire concept of holding a show on weekdays needs to be reconsidered. Most collectors simply cannot play hooky from work or from their professional practices or cannot shutter their businesses to attend a coin show. It can be hard enough for many of us to get away from the office even on a Saturday. I went to the Santa Clara show in the morning and worked in the afternoon, and I am confident that I am far from alone in that regard.
So instead of forcing dealers to come to town for Thursday and Friday sessions, why not limit the show to Friday, including evening hours, and Saturday, or only Saturday and Sunday. By the same token, the auctions need to adjust to working schedules as well. It is ridiculous to hold lot viewings during weekday business hours. Hold the lot viewing sessions in the evenings instead. The auction houses have made it is easy to bid on line, but if you can’t see the coins first what good is it? >>
I agree wholeheartedly. Many dealers, show organizers and auction houses expect collectors to either be retired and completely at will with their time or financially independant and able to come and go through life as they please. They refuse to realize that the large majority of collectors have life obligations that restrict them from attending such an event until a weekend (which means Friday PM-Sunday PM).
But I too was dissapointed with the SC show and would support a Friday-Saturday or Saturday Sunday. Two days only.
The shows go four days because they have to book the convention center for the weekend. It is time to reduce it to two days and just have an empty room for a couple of days.
I will take the blame for this one. I moved to California and then all of the shows start to tank. Kidding. Actually, I thought that the last Long Beach was a great show, but I skipped the Santa Clara show.
for my own part, i'm hamstringed by my work schedule and available vacation time as to which shows i can attend. i pity the large dealer who feels they have to travel to every major show, it must be a daunting task and very, very draining. i would assume that perhaps the last 5-10 years of a rising coin market may be starting to take it's toll and is finally starting to show in dealer abscence.
If shows are scheduled for Sat. and Sun. with dealer set-up on Friday, they will not attract the same level of dealer that attends now. Simply most full time dealers do not want to work 7 days a week.
The more sophisticated that the collection becomes is when you need to focus on auctions and attending shows that are held during the week.
Getting coins on approval is another option to adding better coins to collections, as well.
Finding great coins at Saturday/Sunday shows is just not going to happen with much regularity.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>as much as anything i think the entire "Coin Show" concept has suffered lately simply because there are too many shows and too many major auctions being held CONSTANTLY. with several months advance notice for a show it seems anyone should be able to adjust their work/personal schedule, it's just that the shows and auctions seem to follow each other's heels in rapid succession, overwhelming even the most flexible collector or dealer. while i have heard of the demise of West Coast shows over the past several years i can't imagine why it would be a phenomenon limited to only that geographical area unless it has something to do with accessibility and/or the promoters.
for my own part, i'm hamstringed by my work schedule and available vacation time as to which shows i can attend. i pity the large dealer who feels they have to travel to every major show, it must be a daunting task and very, very draining. i would assume that perhaps the last 5-10 years of a rising coin market may be starting to take it's toll and is finally starting to show in dealer abscence. >>
Agreed, I wish there were less auctions and more incentive for dealers to come to shows. I don't travel so the Santa Clara show is all I have. I would much rather see inventory in person than from a photo.
The weather last week for the Santa Clara show was great. Sunny, dry and in the mid 70's. A great time to be outside. I attended on Thursday afternoon and the attendance was very light.
Besides the weather (in reality probably a minimal factor) other factors supress turnout, including the fact that many boomer collectors have jobs they can not get away from during the week. If I was not self employed, I would not be able to attend the Santa Clara show as regualrly as I do.
<< <i>The more sophisticated that the collection becomes is when you need to focus on auctions and attending shows that are held during the week. >>
That is the way it has been, but perhaps it can no longer continue to be that way. Besides coins, what other retail businesses are closed on the weekend?
My wife's faimily is in the jewlery business and we often attend the annual estate jewlery show in Las Vegas with them. The show is open on Saturday and Sunday. Jewish dealers who observe the Sabbath attend the show on Sunday. While this is a trade show for dealers, not the consumer, these dealers do not resent having to work the weekend.
CG
1. There are too many major coin shows. They are expensive
time consuming and really tire out the dealers. They are now
beginning to select those shows that offer them the best sales
the best purchases or both. Shows will be eliminated and reduced
in number as Web buying replaces more and more collectors going to
shows to purchase coins.
As an example three Long Beach shows are two, to many. The show has
had its day and now must cut back in order to retain some special quality that
can lead to it's future expansion.
2. There are also too many auctions. Many are composed of tired
been around the track coins that have not sold for a long time. No
sale on lots are high as many lots fail to meet protective limits. A
number of auction houses may disappear or reduce the number of
auctions.
3. Many collectors that have collected coins that are of the wrong type,
the wrong grade or plain ugly, are finding out now that their coin holdings
are worth only a fraction of what the paid. Much of it is not salable at almost
any price.
4. Economic tightening, job layoffs and increasing economic uncertainty will cause
collectors to begin cutting back on purchases. This will mean dealers will start cutting
back on purchases
5. These things will pass and a new cycle will begin. However, this part of the down cycle
appears, that it will last somewhat longer then we have come to expect.
6. Distressing world news will heighten uncertainty and cause collectors to begin to pull
in their horns.
Camelot
<< <i>This is the beginning of the unwinding of the coin surge.
1. There are too many major coin shows. They are expensive
time consuming and really tire out the dealers. They are now
beginning to select those shows that offer them the best sales
the best purchases or both. Shows will be eliminated and reduced
in number as Web buying replaces more and more collectors going to
shows to purchase coins.
2. There are also too many auctions. Many are composed of tired
been around the track coins that have not sold for a long time. No
sale on lots are high as many lots fail to meet protective limits. A
number of auction houses may disappear or reduce the number of
auctions.
3. Many collectors that have collected coins that are of the wrong type,
the wrong grade or plain ugly, are finding out now that their coin holdings
are worth only a fraction of what the paid. Much of it is not salable at almost
any price.
4. Economic tightening, job layoffs and increasing economic uncertainty will cause
collectors to begin cutting back on purchases. This will mean dealers will start cutting
back on purchases
5. These things will pass and a new cycle will begin. However, this part of the down cycle
appears, that it will last somewhat longer then we have come to expect.
6. Distressing world news will heighten uncertainty and case collectors to begin to pull
in their horns. >>
Very good post. I particularly agree with #1-3.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
The big east coast shows you mention frankly do a better job appealing to the average collector or potential collector in my opinion. Both have free admission and a host of activities aimed at collectors, YNs, etc. Both advertise to the general public and do a great job with PR to potential attendees that aren't tuned into the usual numismatic communication network (ANA, CW, NN, CU Boards, etc.).
Baltimore gives free "hands full of money" to the kids and the announcement is heard over the loudspeaker every few hours at which point the kids rush the front of the room for the give aways. The is the supermarket equivalent of candy in the checkout lane. Kids drag their parents to these shows so they can get the handful of money. According to LB's website they have a Children's Treasure Hunt on Saturday but it must not be very well promoted. I've been attending the show for several years and I have never seen it advertised, never heard it announced on the PA system, have never been solicited to participate in or support the event, nor heard any of the YNs at the show talking about the experience. Unless information is provided at registration, as best I can tell this only appears on the show's website.
The LB show seems a bit more geared to "investors" with sponsors like UBS and a wealth management seminar that sometimes happens in close conjunction with the show. Not only does this not attract the average collector but those that do come get a slight sense that they show is targeted to a different group.
Bourse table fees, especially when comparing Baltimore to LB, also make a difference. The Baltimore show has kept table fees low and worked with dealers by selling them half tables, etc. This gets more of the smaller local dealers into the show with material that appeals to the beginning and average collector (which nicely rounds out the more advanced selections offered by the national dealers). LB, in contrast, has priced these dealers out of the show and in turn new and average collectors find similar or better selections of they types of material they collect at their local shows where they don't have to pay admission and parking fees and don't have to take off from work. The new ownership raised table rates substantially for grading services (I think they were close to tripled). While so far none of the services stopped coming at some point this may drive one or more from the show. ICG and particularly ANACS are oriented to the new and average collector and play an important role at any large convention.
While any one of these things may not be that big a deal they are irritations that dealers and collectors feel and speak about. This in turn creates negative buzz and perception issues that are difficult to rectify. The persistent comments on this message board to which the OP refers are prime examples. The little things the east coast shows are doing gets them positive buzz and positive perception while the little things the west coast shows are doing are having the opposite effect. Advertising, press releases, articles, PR, etc. is expensive and typically given less credibility than the word of mouth or gossip about the show. So it is important to work to create favorable impressions from both dealers and collectors as that has more value than the paid campaigns and it is virtually impossible to counteract negative perception.
In fairness, I can tell our host is trying to improve the LB show. They have increased their presence and have presentation and seminars hosted by key employees of CU and its various divisions. They've also racheted up the stamp presence through participation of PSE. However, they still need to address the admissions fees, bourse fees and programs designed to attract the average collector. Some LB dealer pluses that are nice (that probably also apply to SC): they are the only major show that takes credit cards for bourse fees (although they do have a surcharge for the privilege) and the only major show that sends a rep to your table to fill out the bourse info for the next show (although some of the people need to be told not to interrupt a business deal or discussion going on at the table).
WH
PS: And then there's the music....
If there were far fewer auctions, but larger ones, I could be persuaded to attend the shows in order to view auction lots. My purchases at coin shows is almost zero. Bourse dealers either don't have what I want, or they outbid me in auctions, so their price offer to me is higher than I was willing to bid at auction.
Most of the dealers I know work with have nothing against working on weekends (several of the major shows now "force" dealers to work 9-10 days straight, in order to do all of the pre-show auctions anyway). It is a mystery to me why these shows seem to mainly take place during the week. As folks who are self-employed, the weekends and the weekdays are the same to us, so if it allows our customers to attend more coin shows, we should do it!
Coin Rarities Online
Also, I live in the PNW and it is costly (time and money) to try to go to any of the major shows. Even the less than major, if they aren't in the area are hard to go to.
The east coast has a TON of shows. Looks like they get well attended but you have to figure that the more of them there are the less dealers, and others, will be able to go to other shows.
What may be good for one region is likely bad for the hobby at large...
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
K S