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Can you identify what's wrong with this coin?

GoldenEyeNumismaticsGoldenEyeNumismatics Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
This coin is otherwise an overall attractive, VF/XF, original bust dollar. However, there is a major problem with it that severely impairs the value. Can you see it? No, the coin is not counterfeit.

So can you tell what it is?

image
image

Comments

  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,256 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re-engraved shield lines?
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,256 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hole (now plugged) between B and E of LIBERTY?
  • DUIGUYDUIGUY Posts: 7,252 ✭✭✭
    Repared. Obverse in da cleavage area.
    “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly."



    - Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
  • ILikeMercsILikeMercs Posts: 1,392 ✭
    what is that above the stars on the rev?
    imageDo not taunt Happy Fun Ball image
  • tightbudgettightbudget Posts: 7,299 ✭✭✭
    I'm gonna go with plugged
  • GoldenEyeNumismaticsGoldenEyeNumismatics Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Hole (now plugged) between B and E of LIBERTY? >>



    Ugg! Going and ruining my fun! image

    Yes, this coin is plugged, extremely deceptively. It's even less noticable in hand. The hole actually contained the entire area that was the "E" in Liberty, and the E has been completely recreated. So have many of the tail feathers on the reverse.

    It's one of the best plug jobs I've ever seen.
  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rim dings and a copy from China and all the pot marks and the stars.Did I get one right. image


    Hoard the keys.
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,256 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pretty cool. How did you discover it? Maybe by the E not matching up to any other E's of known dies? That's when the heart skips a beat and you know you've got something odd. It's either a new die (cha-ching!!!), a counterfeit (ouch!!) or a re-engraved coin (still an ouch!). Sucks when the outcome is like it is for your coin but it's still a rush figuring it out. image
  • PrivateCoinCollectorPrivateCoinCollector Posts: 2,415 ✭
    The "E" looks a bit to wide. It was my first inclination, but before I could go get one to look at I had read down the thread. That is a good job, and I am fairly sure had you not said something was wrong with it I would have looked at it hard enough to notice.

    Thanks, great educational thread.
    Morgan HerdTO Gold Mine
  • GoldenEyeNumismaticsGoldenEyeNumismatics Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Pretty cool. How did you discover it? Maybe by the E not matching up to any other E's of known dies? That's when the heart skips a beat and you know you've got something odd. It's either a new die (cha-ching!!!), a counterfeit (ouch!!) or a re-engraved coin (still an ouch!). Sucks when the outcome is like it is for your coin but it's still a rush figuring it out. image >>



    How did I find out? NGC sent her home in a body bag! It completely bypassed me! I took me 12 months to find the plug (well, I looked at it, couldn't find it, put the coin away and a year kater took it out again and found it)
  • pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355 ✭
    Clad's good. REAL good.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • rec78rec78 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭✭✭
    plugged- between states and of?
    image
  • nankrautnankraut Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭
    Very skillfull repair job, that's for sure.image
    I'm the Proud recipient of a genuine "you suck" award dated 1/24/05. I was accepted into the "Circle of Trust" on 3/9/09.
  • StampAlarmStampAlarm Posts: 1,668 ✭


    << <i>Pretty cool. How did you discover it? Maybe by the E not matching up to any other E's of known dies? That's when the heart skips a beat and you know you've got something odd. It's either a new die (cha-ching!!!), a counterfeit (ouch!!) or a re-engraved coin (still an ouch!). Sucks when the outcome is like it is for your coin but it's still a rush figuring it out. image >>





    Is it possible someone still re engraved the shield lines at the same time as putting in the plug? Or
    is that idea now out the window.



    Jerry
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,735 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The 'E' definitely looks too wide, though I don't know if I would have seen it had you not said there was a problem with the coin. Looking at the reverse only I never would have ever guessed that the coin had been plugged and repaired.


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,788 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Plugged, with the E and the tail feathers recreated by hand. Probably done by P.E. Stockton of Kentucky, who used to advertise in the Numismatist that he repaired coins. This is typical of his workmanship. Notice the crude denticles below the tail feathers. He could never get those right.

    When I was at ANACS we got in a High Relief with a pin soldered onto the field on one side. We gertified it as genuine, mounted. About six months later the owner sent it back and said that he had had Stockton remove the pin. Even with the old photo certificate in hand, which proved that it was the same coin, you could not see any evidence that the coin had ever been mounted.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • coppercoinscoppercoins Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭
    Even without knowing the design all too well I could see the tail feathers were hand cut, but what really gave it away was the lack of flow lines on the tops of the denticles just below the tail feathers...they are squared off and sharp on the top, unlike all the denticles around them. Nice plug job, but it could have been done more descreetly.
    C. D. Daughtrey, NLG
    The Lincoln cent store:
    http://www.lincolncent.com

    My numismatic art work:
    http://www.cdaughtrey.com
    USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
    image
  • tychojoetychojoe Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭
    Good thread!~

    Probably done by P.E. Stockton of Kentucky, who used to advertise in the Numismatist that he repaired coins. This is typical of his workmanship. Notice the crude denticles below the tail feathers. He could never get those right.

    This is one reason I like reading these boards! It's a small world...
    My Sets: Barber Halves, US Type
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,328 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The E in LIBERTY stuck out like a sore thumb to me, but that could be because you said the coin had a major problem. I wonder what I and others would have thought had you just posted it as a GTG coin.
    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • commoncents05commoncents05 Posts: 10,096 ✭✭✭
    The plug job jumped right out at me. I've seen this a lot on old Bust Dollars, so I that was the first thing I looked for, and that E is not even close to being right.

    -Paul
    Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com
  • jmj3esqjmj3esq Posts: 5,421 ✭
    That is the finest plug job I have ever seen. I do believe I would never have noticed taht until a "problem" was brought to my attention. I have been looking for a nice early dollar or half. I better start looking closer for problems.
  • GemineyeGemineye Posts: 5,374 ✭
    Why does the head of the Eagle look like a Gator...image
    ......Larry........image
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭✭✭
    All and all, nicely repaired.
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
  • CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭
    The letter bottoms in "States" look funny to me. Pretty well defined for a coin that has no cloud definition. My 2C.
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
  • CappedBustDimesCappedBustDimes Posts: 218
    i suspect tooling on motto. the detail does not correlate with the wear on eagle's head.
  • STONESTONE Posts: 15,275 ✭
    Holed and expertly repaired at 12 o'clock.

    Notice the slightly enlongated "E" of LIBERTY
  • olmanjonolmanjon Posts: 1,187 ✭
    OK- after all is said and done-what is this coins value if it had not been repaired--what is its value now and what would have been the value if it didn't need to be repaired?
    Proud recipiant of the Lord M "you suck award-March-2008"
    http://bit.ly/bxi7py
  • GoldenEyeNumismaticsGoldenEyeNumismatics Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The letter bottoms in "States" look funny to me. Pretty well defined for a coin that has no cloud definition. My 2C. >>



    It's not tooled beyind the plug job. The clouds are more visible in hand, it jus photo'd poorly

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